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Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by Steven Kelly

What about caching reads for performance reasons? That seems useful in GLORP for Store, or am I just imagining it? I have images that have lived for years and haven't slowed down or become bloated, so GLORP caches are clearing correctly when the image is saved, restarts and reconnects to Store. I have a little home grown ORM and web renderer that does no caching, and that too works fine: in simple old-fashioned web rendering, you rarely would want to cache longer than it takes to render one page. Steve ________________________________ From: Philippe Marschall<mailto:philippe.marschall@gmail.com> Sent: ‎01/‎10/‎2017 22:41 To: Seaside - general discussion<mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org> Cc: esug-list(a)lists.esug.org<mailto:esug-list@lists.esug.org>; glorp-group<mailto:glorp-group@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody? Hi Let me start by mentioning that I don't believe any of these issues are Seaside specific. IMO these issues apply to any web framework using GLORP and even any web framework using an ORM in general. So it could be beneficial to investigate how other Smalltalk web frameworks (AIDA, ApeX, Iliad, ...) or even other languages solve this issue (JSF, Spring Web MVC, JPA/Hibernate). What is most concerning to me is how every object ever loaded with GLOP is tracked in the cache of the GLOP session. IMO this is wrong as most objects are read-only and never edited. These objects should not be tracked. This leads to a lot of unnecessary memory overhead. Only the objects that are actually edited should be tracked. I think of it this way, when a table or list of objects is rendered none the displayed objects should be tracked. Only when an edit link or button is clicked and an edit form is rendered then the edited object needs to be tracked and optimistically locked. If we track every object ever loaded then this simply leads to unbound memory usage. If caching has to happen for correctness then the cache should be flushed at the end of a request. Digging a bit into the GLROP documentation I don't think a unit of work should be active during the render phase. As far as I understand this should prevent any of the loaded objects from being tracked by being added to the cache. Only when an object is being edited should it be registered manually for tracking by the GLOP session. However during the callback phase a unit of work should be active. This should be done automatically by a Seaside-GLORP extension. On a successful or cancelled edit the edited object should be removed from the cache again and the callback should be invalidated (ideally a one time callback is used). It would be good to hear from somebody with GLROP experience whether what I just wrote made any sense at all or is utter nonsense. I would also be open to attending some sort of meetup in northern Switzerland/southern Germany to discuss this in person. Cheers Philippe On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 8:56 AM, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > Hi there, > > > since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as I > suggested, I try something new now ;-) > > Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is good > introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it comes to real > world use, there are many questions to be answered like > > how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that stuff, > especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside based web app > how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, embedded objects > etc. > what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been working for > hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out if Glorp or your use > of it is the problem? What can you do then? > Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems > > None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible answers > to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a lot of time. It > can even be a risk to your business. > > There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and sometimes > it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. Explaining the whole > thing sometimes would make for loooong messages that probably nobody ever > reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't brilliant. > > So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use Glorp > (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in discussing stuff > and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp users group. > > The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and carry > your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern France, > Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, please let me > know and I am more than interested in setting something up. > > The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe even > on a regular basis. > > Please let me know if you'd be interested. > > > Joachim > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 1, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by Philippe Marschall

Hi Let me start by mentioning that I don't believe any of these issues are Seaside specific. IMO these issues apply to any web framework using GLORP and even any web framework using an ORM in general. So it could be beneficial to investigate how other Smalltalk web frameworks (AIDA, ApeX, Iliad, ...) or even other languages solve this issue (JSF, Spring Web MVC, JPA/Hibernate). What is most concerning to me is how every object ever loaded with GLOP is tracked in the cache of the GLOP session. IMO this is wrong as most objects are read-only and never edited. These objects should not be tracked. This leads to a lot of unnecessary memory overhead. Only the objects that are actually edited should be tracked. I think of it this way, when a table or list of objects is rendered none the displayed objects should be tracked. Only when an edit link or button is clicked and an edit form is rendered then the edited object needs to be tracked and optimistically locked. If we track every object ever loaded then this simply leads to unbound memory usage. If caching has to happen for correctness then the cache should be flushed at the end of a request. Digging a bit into the GLROP documentation I don't think a unit of work should be active during the render phase. As far as I understand this should prevent any of the loaded objects from being tracked by being added to the cache. Only when an object is being edited should it be registered manually for tracking by the GLOP session. However during the callback phase a unit of work should be active. This should be done automatically by a Seaside-GLORP extension. On a successful or cancelled edit the edited object should be removed from the cache again and the callback should be invalidated (ideally a one time callback is used). It would be good to hear from somebody with GLROP experience whether what I just wrote made any sense at all or is utter nonsense. I would also be open to attending some sort of meetup in northern Switzerland/southern Germany to discuss this in person. Cheers Philippe On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 8:56 AM, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > Hi there, > > > since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as I > suggested, I try something new now ;-) > > Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is good > introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it comes to real > world use, there are many questions to be answered like > > how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that stuff, > especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside based web app > how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, embedded objects > etc. > what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been working for > hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out if Glorp or your use > of it is the problem? What can you do then? > Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems > > None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible answers > to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a lot of time. It > can even be a risk to your business. > > There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and sometimes > it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. Explaining the whole > thing sometimes would make for loooong messages that probably nobody ever > reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't brilliant. > > So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use Glorp > (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in discussing stuff > and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp users group. > > The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and carry > your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern France, > Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, please let me > know and I am more than interested in setting something up. > > The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe even > on a regular basis. > > Please let me know if you'd be interested. > > > Joachim > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >

Oct. 1, 2017

Pharo Mooc is starting soon

by Stéphane Ducasse

Please distribute widely! The second session of the Pharo Mooc is in the starting block. Register! It starts 16 of October. https://www.fun-mooc.fr/courses/course-v1:inria+41010+session02/about <https://www.fun-mooc.fr/courses/course-v1:inria+41010+session02/about> New this year: - English dubs - Japanese subtitles Stef -------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Oct. 1, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi guys We (the pharo team) are really interested. This is why the consortium invested in a documentation and this is why I spent time editing it it is now available in the booklet collection available at http://books.pharo.org This is also we paid to get the Garage library. Remember that we are interested in fostering business :). Please please if you write some docs let me know and we can integrate them in the Glorp booklet. I would like to know - how to connect Glorp and Magritte (I’m revisiting the Magritte tutorial and soon the implementation) - how to could we have a simple CRUD on top of Glorp/Magritte - how can we reduce the verbosity of Glorp - Can we have better tooling? If people want to come to lille we have pay the beers and also host event? I would like to migrate the Seaside online book into an open-source pillar version (but I have another book on the grill and many things). We should continue to maintain the Seaside documentation and grow it. Stef > On 28 Sep 2017, at 08:56, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de wrote: > > Hi there, > > > since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as I suggested, I try something new now ;-) > Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is good introductory material, even if it is hard to find. > Where is it? Because on Pharo it is super simple: http://books.pharo.org > But when it comes to real world use, there are many questions to be answered like > > how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that stuff, especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside based web app > how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, embedded objects etc. > what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been working for hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out if Glorp or your use of it is the problem? What can you do then? > Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems > None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible answers to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a lot of time. It can even be a risk to your business. > There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and sometimes it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. Explaining the whole thing sometimes would make for loooong messages that probably nobody ever reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't brilliant. > So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use Glorp (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in discussing stuff and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp users group. > > The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and carry your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern France, Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, please let me know and I am more than interested in setting something up. > The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe even on a regular basis. > > Please let me know if you'd be interested. > > > Joachim > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de <mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de> > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de <http://www.objektfabrik.de/> > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com <http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com/> > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Sept. 29, 2017

New Booklet

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi happy Smalltalkers I just want to let you that we wrote a nice little booklet on HTML scraping. Available at http://books.pharo.org Stef PS: more to come :) PSPS: Yes we are improving the visibility of our lovely environment. Do not hesitate to join and help changing the world and more important have fun with us. -------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Sept. 29, 2017

[ANN] New book, Mooc and lectures...

by Stéphane Ducasse

NEW OOP/OOD/TDD LECTURE STARTING… Hi all Monday we are starting a new lecture on OOP/OOD with Pharo in TDD mode at University of Prague. I created a dedicated Mooc based on the Pharo Mooc. http <https://squarebracketassociates.github.io/OOProgrammingMooc/>s://squarebracketassociates.github.io/OOProgrammingMooc/ <https://squarebracketassociates.github.io/OOProgrammingMooc/> We will use the following new book "Learning Object-Oriented Programming, Design with TDD in Pharo" http://files.pharo.org/books/learning-oop/ <http://files.pharo.org/books/learning-oop/> Stef -------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Sept. 29, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Thomas, thanks for your interest. Yes, I was sure I am not alone in my search for best practices and recipes. Or stories of failures to learn from. So we are already 3, because I got a PM from another developer not really located in our Region ;-) Hope to hear from a few more soon. Am 28.09.17 um 10:53 schrieb Thomas Brodt: > > Hi all > > I would be very interested in a group sharing any experience with Glorp. > > We currently have exactly these questions on our list that Joachim > mentions, and some more. And as we also have an Object Lens > Visualworks application, there are interesting questions regarding > similarities and differences between the two, in their usage and their > internals. And besides the rather introductory documentation for basic > operations and mapppings, there is none of the more "advanced" > techniques and best practices that come with a larger business > application if you succeeded with the first steps. > > We're located near the border of Switzerland to Germany, so the region > would match ;-) > > But anyone interested whereever in the world should take this > opportunity to get in touch! > > Thomas > > > Am 28.09.2017 um 08:56 schrieb jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de: >> >> Hi there, >> >> >> since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF >> as I suggested, I try something new now ;-) >> >> Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is >> good introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it >> comes to real world use, there are many questions to be answered like >> >> * how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that >> stuff, especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside >> based web app >> * how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, >> embedded objects etc. >> * what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been >> working for hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out >> if Glorp or your use of it is the problem? What can you do then? >> * Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems >> >> None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible >> answers to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a >> lot of time. It can even be a risk to your business. >> >> There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and >> sometimes it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. >> Explaining the whole thing sometimes would make for loooong messages >> that probably nobody ever reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't >> brilliant. >> >> So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use >> Glorp (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in >> discussing stuff and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp >> users group. >> >> The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and >> carry your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, >> Eastern France, Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a >> meeting, please let me know and I am more than interested in setting >> something up. >> >> The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. >> Maybe even on a regular basis. >> >> Please let me know if you'd be interested. >> >> >> Joachim >> -- >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchelmailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de >> Fliederweg 1http://www.objektfabrik.de >> D-71640 Ludwigsburghttp://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com >> Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 >> > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Sept. 28, 2017

Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Hi there, since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as I suggested, I try something new now ;-) Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is good introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it comes to real world use, there are many questions to be answered like * how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that stuff, especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside based web app * how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, embedded objects etc. * what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been working for hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out if Glorp or your use of it is the problem? What can you do then? * Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible answers to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a lot of time. It can even be a risk to your business. There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and sometimes it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. Explaining the whole thing sometimes would make for loooong messages that probably nobody ever reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't brilliant. So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use Glorp (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in discussing stuff and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp users group. The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and carry your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern France, Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, please let me know and I am more than interested in setting something up. The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe even on a regular basis. Please let me know if you'd be interested. Joachim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Sept. 28, 2017

UK Smalltalk User Group Meeting - Monday, September 25th - Fizzylogo: a Smalltalk-72 lookalike

by Giovanni Corriga

The next meeting of the UK Smalltalk User Group Meeting will be on Monday, 25th September. We'll meet at a new venue The City Pride ( http://www.cityprideclerkenwell.co.uk/ ) at 7pm. Davide Della Casa will present *Fizzylogo: a Smalltalk-72 lookalike. *An excellent excuse to revisit how early Smalltalk versions (the languages, and the environments) worked under the hood, including Smalltalk-72 and Rosetta Smalltalk. If you'd like to join us, you can just show up at the pub. You can also sign up in advance at the meeting's Meetup page: https://www.meetup.com/UKSTUG/events/243468885 . See you there!

Sept. 18, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] Paper notepad found @ ESUG

by Dale Henrichs

Luc, That is my notepad ... Fortunately, there were no important notes in that notepad so you can dispose of it ... I had lost another notepad at the same time, that did have important notes and I recovered that one at the conference. Thanks! Dale On 9/14/17 5:37 AM, Luc Fabresse wrote: > Dear ESUG'17 participants, > > A paper notepad has been found at ESUG'17 in Maribor. > > Picture here: > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPVS3ox-dooLmrVWs_kNATwJd8nS0dHcqlmX6R… > > If is it yours, please contact Ales in CC. > > Best, > > #Luc > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Sept. 15, 2017