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Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by HwaJongOh

2011. 3. 25., 저녁 9:44, laurent laffont 작성: > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy If I invent something it right after predicting it, it will happen with high probability. Therefore Alan Kay's famous words make sense. I cannot figure out James's words to make sense, yet. Best Regards

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 March 2011 13:44, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Stéphane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> Yes >> There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the >> community. >> Let us stand up and build the next generation. > > yep :) > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy > Laurent. > Indeed. No time to be desperate. I have a full plate of todos now. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Yes > There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the community. > Let us stand up and build the next generation. > yep :) "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy Laurent. > > Stef > > > Dear Stephane, > > one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is > by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till > later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. > > > > It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages > were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is > better than fast, right. > > > > So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or > may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, > but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. > > > > Yours faithfully > > Niall Ross > > > > Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > > >> Steven > >> > >> this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and > present your products at ESUG while > >> I'm sure that it would have helped the community. Now I like all the > talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others > than our little business). > >> > >> Stef > >> > >> > >> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > >> > >> > >>> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are > doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers > talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about > programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few > times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve > major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. > >>> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do > with some love: > >>> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl > >>> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A > place for Jordi to write, ok!" > >>> 3) The search box does nothing > >>> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not > defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) > >>> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with > outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're > considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this > is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put > into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. > >>> All the best, > >>> Steve > >>> -- > >>> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. > >>> Co-President and CTO, MetaCase > >>> Tel.: +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 > >>> Fax: +358 420 648 606 > >>> Cell: +358 40 7331 286 > >>> Web: www.metacase.com > >>> Blog: www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView > >>> Email: steven.kelly(a)metacase.com > >>> > >>> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 > >>> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Esug-list mailing list > >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email___________________________________________… > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email___________________________________________… > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

Yes There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the community. Let us stand up and build the next generation. Stef > Dear Stephane, > one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. > > It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is better than fast, right. > > So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. > > Yours faithfully > Niall Ross > > Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Steven >> >> this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while >> I'm sure that it would have helped the community. Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). >> >> Stef >> >> >> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: >> >> >>> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >>> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >>> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >>> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >>> 3) The search box does nothing >>> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >>> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >>> All the best, >>> Steve >>> -- >>> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >>> Co-President and CTO, MetaCase >>> Tel.: +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 >>> Fax: +358 420 648 606 >>> Cell: +358 40 7331 286 >>> Web: www.metacase.com >>> Blog: www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView >>> Email: steven.kelly(a)metacase.com >>> >>> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >>> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

> Stéphane Ducasse wrote >> this is fun that you shoot on us > > I guess you really know I'm not shooting at anyone, and you don't need to react negatively. I stand by my comments, both praise and (hopefully insightful and constructive) criticism, and welcome any debate on the actual points. > >> while you were never able to come and present your products >> at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. > > You've been good at asking me to come over the years - well done! As I've replied each time, I don't like travel, and I have to do a lot of it for our business. I've presented MetaEdit+ at the Cincom Smalltalk conference in Frankfurt, and many times at OOPSLA and ECOOP. Presenting at those places has made commercial sense; presenting at ESUG hasn't seemed to - mostly because the attendees aren't potential customers. That's just the way companies make decisions. as I already told you, I imagine that Smalltalk developers do not leave in a bubble with only Smalltalk teams and products and they can probably push your product to Java people because they know that this is in Smalltalk. But I can understand that you do not like to travel since I do not like that either. Now this is up to you to present or not MetaEdit+ at ESUG. Stef

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Niall Ross

Dear Stephane, one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is better than fast, right. So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. Yours faithfully Niall Ross Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >Steven > >this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while >I'm sure that it would have helped the community. >Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). > >Stef > > >On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > >>It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >> >>If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >>1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >>2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >>3) The search box does nothing >>4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >> >>Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >> >>All the best, >>Steve >>-- >>Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >>Co-President and CTO, MetaCase >>Tel.: >>+358 14 641 000 ext. 21 >>Fax: >>+358 420 648 606 >>Cell: >>+358 40 7331 286 >>Web: >>www.metacase.com >>Blog: >>www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView >>Email: >>steven.kelly(a)metacase.com >> >>SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >>MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Esug-list mailing list >>Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >______________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by stephane ducasse

+1 This is all my point. We can all at our own level gets an impact! > Well folks, > > Strategic discussions are nice and welcome, but related to subject of > this thread, Nick Ager recently posted link to his very nice blog post > with included tutorial how to host Seaside app on EC2. > > Now, raise your hands, who has tweeted, buzzed, commented or linked to > this blog post. > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Steven Kelly

Stéphane Ducasse wrote > this is fun that you shoot on us I guess you really know I'm not shooting at anyone, and you don't need to react negatively. I stand by my comments, both praise and (hopefully insightful and constructive) criticism, and welcome any debate on the actual points. > while you were never able to come and present your products > at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. You've been good at asking me to come over the years - well done! As I've replied each time, I don't like travel, and I have to do a lot of it for our business. I've presented MetaEdit+ at the Cincom Smalltalk conference in Frankfurt, and many times at OOPSLA and ECOOP. Presenting at those places has made commercial sense; presenting at ESUG hasn't seemed to - mostly because the attendees aren't potential customers. That's just the way companies make decisions. I actually discussed entering MetaEdit+ for the ESUG innovation competition one year, and the other judges were open to a commercial product, but you didn't like the idea (which is fine). I'm glad that as a result of that discussion the competition is open to all now. > Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something > for others (I mean others than our little business). I don't do much for ESUG, but in my small way I try and help the Smalltalk community. I love Smalltalk but hate travel, so most of what I do is in the virtual world - helping others on discussion lists, and publishing things in the Cincom public repository. Admittedly all VW not Squeak/Pharo, so less visible to you, but hopefully still useful. If it's any comfort, last week I sent out posters and CFPs for ESUG2011 to several universities and mailing lists. All the best, Steve "to give and not to count the cost; to fight and not to heed the wounds; to toil and not to seek for rest; to labour and not to ask for any reward" > On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are > doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is > programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers > talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've > seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way > Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with > a new name. > > > > If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do > with some love: > > 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl > > 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A > place for Jordi to write, ok!" > > 3) The search box does nothing > > 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not > defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) > > > > Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with > outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're > considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand > this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people > have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug > report. > > > > All the best, > > Steve > > -- > > Steven Kelly, Ph.D. > > Co-President and CTO, MetaCase > > Tel.: > > +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 > > Fax: > > +358 420 648 606 > > Cell: > > +358 40 7331 286 > > Web: > > www.metacase.com > > Blog: > > www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView > > Email: > > steven.kelly(a)metacase.com > > > > SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 > > MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by stephane ducasse

> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. I'm convinced about that but how could it be Smalltalk with Smalltalk. If you have the solution I'm all ears. Stef

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Janko Mivšek

Talking to me but also to us: we are lacking broader professionalism from time to time and our websites (mines included) mirror that lack. This part is also hard to understand for us developers, we can be professional in our field, but harder in fields like "public relations" (good meaning of that term). If we accept at least critics from others, this would be a good first step ... Best regards Janko On 25. 03. 2011 10:27, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Steven > > this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while > I'm sure that it would have helped the community. > Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). > > Stef > > > On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > >> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >> >> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >> 3) The search box does nothing >> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >> >> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >> >> All the best, >> Steve >> -- >> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >> >> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

March 25, 2011