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Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:48 PM, Dale Henrichs <dhenrich(a)vmware.com> wrote: > On 05/17/2011 12:37 PM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont >> <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >>> >> .. >> >> Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some >> Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: >> >> >> http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… >> >> You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned >> CloudFoundry for following reasons: >> - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to >> different cloud providers >> - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and >> Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could >> be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. >> >> As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if >> you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby >> knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would >> be very nice to have :) >> >> As for your other goals - great! >> >> Davorin Rusevljan >> http://www.cloud208.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > Laurent/Davorin, > > We are in the process of adding support for deploying GLASS applications > into the Cloud Foundry, but I wouldn't mind helping folks who are interested > in adding support for other Smalltalks into the Cloud Foundry ... The Cloud > Foundry is written largely in ruby, so you'll need to be wearing your ruby > dancing shoes:) > Thanks Dale, just need to wax my shoes first, haven't worn them for a long time :) Laurent. > > Dale >

May 18, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Dale Henrichs

On 05/17/2011 12:37 PM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont > <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) > .. > > Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some > Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: > > http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… > > You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned > CloudFoundry for following reasons: > - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to > different cloud providers > - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and > Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could > be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. > > As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if > you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby > knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would > be very nice to have :) > > As for your other goals - great! > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org Laurent/Davorin, We are in the process of adding support for deploying GLASS applications into the Cloud Foundry, but I wouldn't mind helping folks who are interested in adding support for other Smalltalks into the Cloud Foundry ... The Cloud Foundry is written largely in ruby, so you'll need to be wearing your ruby dancing shoes:) Dale

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont > <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) > .. > > Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some > Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: > > > http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… > > You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned > CloudFoundry for following reasons: > - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to > different cloud providers > - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and > Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could > be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. > > As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if > you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby > knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would > be very nice to have :) > Yes. Indeed I would like contributing to SmallHarbour to be easy. So Cloundfoundry should be one (worthwhile) among several ways to deploy SmallHarbour platform. Laurent Laffont - @lolgzs <http://twitter.com/#!/lolgzs> Pharo Smalltalk Screencasts: http://www.pharocasts.com/ Blog: http://magaloma.blogspot.com/ Developer group: http://cara74.seasidehosting.st > > As for your other goals - great! > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ >

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:41 PM, laurent laffont < > laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < >> marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. >>> It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. >>> >> >> Yes, good idea to have a look. >> >> I actually wonder which database support should come out of the box. >> >> > Do it directly on top of Glass and you already have a lot of things for > free, included that question ;) > I would like all the stack to be open source. Gemstone isn't ? Laurent. > You only need to implement the logistic for the app (kind of > seasidehosting). > > >> Laurent. >> >> >> >>> BTW, cool project and congrats! >>> >>> mariano >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont < >>> laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < >>>> davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting! >>>>> >>>>> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >>>> >>>> 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting >>>> platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud >>>> or on a real server should be a preference. >>>> >>>> Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be >>>> appreciated. >>>> >>>> We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... >>>> for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to >>>> learn). >>>> >>>> For example: >>>> a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web >>>> applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend >>>> time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the >>>> appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. >>>> >>>> b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several >>>> Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then >>>> >>>> apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... >>>> >>>> /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start >>>> >>>> and let's go ! >>>> >>>> >>>> 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for >>>> commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly >>>> fee related to the service you want, then either >>>> >>>> a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a >>>> power user >>>> >>>> b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, >>>> blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated >>>> easily. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't >>>> need SmallHarbour :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Laurent >>>> >>>> Davorin Rusevljan >>>>> http://www.cloud208.com/ >>>>> >>>>> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >>>>> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Just a ... >>>>> >>>>> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >>>>> >>>>> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We >>>>> will start with Seaside though. >>>>> >>>>> Laurent. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mariano >>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:41 PM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < > marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. >> It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. >> > > Yes, good idea to have a look. > > I actually wonder which database support should come out of the box. > > Do it directly on top of Glass and you already have a lot of things for free, included that question ;) You only need to implement the logistic for the app (kind of seasidehosting). > Laurent. > > > >> BTW, cool project and congrats! >> >> mariano >> >> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont < >> laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < >>> davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Interesting! >>>> >>>> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >>>> >>> >>> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >>> >>> 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting >>> platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud >>> or on a real server should be a preference. >>> >>> Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be >>> appreciated. >>> >>> We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... >>> for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to >>> learn). >>> >>> For example: >>> a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web >>> applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend >>> time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the >>> appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. >>> >>> b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several >>> Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then >>> >>> apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... >>> >>> /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start >>> >>> and let's go ! >>> >>> >>> 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for >>> commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly >>> fee related to the service you want, then either >>> >>> a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a >>> power user >>> >>> b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, >>> blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated >>> easily. >>> >>> >>> 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't >>> need SmallHarbour :) >>> >>> >>> Laurent >>> >>> Davorin Rusevljan >>>> http://www.cloud208.com/ >>>> >>>> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >>>> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Just a ... >>>> >>>> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >>>> >>>> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We >>>> will start with Seaside though. >>>> >>>> Laurent. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >>>> >> >>>> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mariano >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> >> > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. > It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. > Yes, good idea to have a look. I actually wonder which database support should come out of the box. Laurent. > BTW, cool project and congrats! > > mariano > > > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont < > laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < >> davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Interesting! >>> >>> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >>> >> >> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >> >> 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting >> platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud >> or on a real server should be a preference. >> >> Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be >> appreciated. >> >> We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... >> for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to >> learn). >> >> For example: >> a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web >> applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend >> time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the >> appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. >> >> b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several >> Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then >> >> apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... >> >> /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start >> >> and let's go ! >> >> >> 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for >> commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly >> fee related to the service you want, then either >> >> a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a >> power user >> >> b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, >> blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated >> easily. >> >> >> 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't need >> SmallHarbour :) >> >> >> Laurent >> >> Davorin Rusevljan >>> http://www.cloud208.com/ >>> >>> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >>> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Just a ... >>> >>> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >>> >>> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We >>> will start with Seaside though. >>> >>> Laurent. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >>> >> >>> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) .. Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned CloudFoundry for following reasons: - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to different cloud providers - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would be very nice to have :) As for your other goals - great! Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. BTW, cool project and congrats! mariano On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < > davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Interesting! >> >> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >> > > Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) > > 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting > platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud > or on a real server should be a preference. > > Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be > appreciated. > > We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... for > an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to > learn). > > For example: > a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web > applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend > time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the > appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. > > b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several > Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then > > apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... > > /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start > > and let's go ! > > > 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for > commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly > fee related to the service you want, then either > > a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a power > user > > b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, > blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated > easily. > > > 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't need > SmallHarbour :) > > > Laurent > > Davorin Rusevljan >> http://www.cloud208.com/ >> >> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Just a ... >> >> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >> >> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We will >> start with Seaside though. >> >> Laurent. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >> >> >> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Interesting! > > Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? > Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud or on a real server should be a preference. Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be appreciated. We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to learn). For example: a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start and let's go ! 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly fee related to the service you want, then either a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a power user b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated easily. 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't need SmallHarbour :) Laurent Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < > tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Just a ... > > Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. > > We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We will > start with Seaside though. > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > > > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> > >> > >> We actually have www.seasideho... > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Davorin Rusevljan

Interesting! Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/ On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Just a ... Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We will start with Seaside though. Laurent. > > > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >> >> We actually have www.seasideho... _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

May 17, 2011