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Re: [Esug-list] Proposal for Mock Objects at ESUG 2011

by Francois Stephany

Hi Dennis, I would also be interested in a Mock presentation. Not really about the concepts but practical cases. We all have needed mocks/stubs one day and it would be interesting to see how/where people use them. It is sometimes hard to know where to mock and how far we should mock. Cheers, Francois On 27/05/11 06:36, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > Hello! > > I'd like to explore interest to Mock Object in Smalltalk society. I'm > currently working on the topic, preparing a paper and presentation > targeting at ESUG 2011. > > I plan to present Mock Objects technique itself and a framework named > Mocketry as a tool helping to apply it in practice. Of course I'll > provide a small example to illustrate some of the ideas. > > Apparently, Mocks technique is not popular tool among Smalltalkers. It > even seems (to me), TDD is not as widely used as it could and should be > (despite the fact it was born in Smalltalk). I have been using TDD and > Mocks for many years in different projects with Smalltalk and other > languages. Sometimes it was hard, sometimes I was even giving it up, but > by now I think I have sufficient experience to state that TDD in general > and Mock Objects specifically do deserve (at least) more attention by > smalltalkers. Yes, Smalltalk is great language and it has great tools. > This damps some aspects of the problems TDD and Mocks address, but for > sure does not remove them totally. More than that, I can say I was most > productive in Smalltalk when I used "classic TDD" and mocks in conjunction. > > > So, are other Smalltalkers interested in this topic? Do you think it > worth to be presented at the conference? What are the problems you'd > like to discuss there? > > TIA > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

May 27, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Proposal for Mock Objects at ESUG 2011

by Frank Shearar

Hi Dennis, Take a look at SSpec (http://www.squeaksource.com/SSpec.html) - that has a mocking library, and might give you a head start? frank On 27 May 2011 05:36, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello! > I'd like to explore interest to Mock Object in Smalltalk society. I'm > currently working on the topic, preparing a paper and presentation targeting > at ESUG 2011. > I plan to present Mock Objects technique itself and a framework named > Mocketry as a tool helping to apply it in practice. Of course I'll provide a > small example to illustrate some of the ideas. > Apparently, Mocks technique is not popular tool among Smalltalkers. It even > seems (to me), TDD is not as widely used as it could and should be (despite > the fact it was born in Smalltalk). I have been using TDD and Mocks for many > years in different projects with Smalltalk and other languages. Sometimes it > was hard, sometimes I was even giving it up, but by now I think I have > sufficient experience to state that TDD in general and Mock Objects > specifically do deserve (at least) more attention by smalltalkers. Yes, > Smalltalk is great language and it has great tools. This damps some aspects > of the problems TDD and Mocks address, but for sure does not remove them > totally. More than that, I can say I was most productive in Smalltalk when I > used "classic TDD" and mocks in conjunction. > > So, are other Smalltalkers interested in this topic? Do you think it worth > to be presented at the conference? What are the problems you'd like to > discuss there? > TIA > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

May 27, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Proposal for Mock Objects at ESUG 2011

by Luc Fabresse

Hi Dennis, I would be interested in such a presentation. I use TDD but I only needed mock objects in very few situations. Perhaps, it is because they are only needed in special cases? So yes I definitly interested in your presentation and improve my understanding on that topic ;-) Bests, Luc Fabresse http://luc.user.fr 2011/5/27 Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> > Hello! > > I'd like to explore interest to Mock Object in Smalltalk society. I'm > currently working on the topic, preparing a paper and presentation targeting > at ESUG 2011. > > I plan to present Mock Objects technique itself and a framework named > Mocketry as a tool helping to apply it in practice. Of course I'll provide a > small example to illustrate some of the ideas. > > Apparently, Mocks technique is not popular tool among Smalltalkers. It even > seems (to me), TDD is not as widely used as it could and should be (despite > the fact it was born in Smalltalk). I have been using TDD and Mocks for many > years in different projects with Smalltalk and other languages. Sometimes it > was hard, sometimes I was even giving it up, but by now I think I have > sufficient experience to state that TDD in general and Mock Objects > specifically do deserve (at least) more attention by smalltalkers. Yes, > Smalltalk is great language and it has great tools. This damps some aspects > of the problems TDD and Mocks address, but for sure does not remove them > totally. More than that, I can say I was most productive in Smalltalk when I > used "classic TDD" and mocks in conjunction. > > > So, are other Smalltalkers interested in this topic? Do you think it worth > to be presented at the conference? What are the problems you'd like to > discuss there? > > TIA > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

May 27, 2011

Proposal for Mock Objects at ESUG 2011

by Dennis Schetinin

Hello! I'd like to explore interest to Mock Object in Smalltalk society. I'm currently working on the topic, preparing a paper and presentation targeting at ESUG 2011. I plan to present Mock Objects technique itself and a framework named Mocketry as a tool helping to apply it in practice. Of course I'll provide a small example to illustrate some of the ideas. Apparently, Mocks technique is not popular tool among Smalltalkers. It even seems (to me), TDD is not as widely used as it could and should be (despite the fact it was born in Smalltalk). I have been using TDD and Mocks for many years in different projects with Smalltalk and other languages. Sometimes it was hard, sometimes I was even giving it up, but by now I think I have sufficient experience to state that TDD in general and Mock Objects specifically do deserve (at least) more attention by smalltalkers. Yes, Smalltalk is great language and it has great tools. This damps some aspects of the problems TDD and Mocks address, but for sure does not remove them totally. More than that, I can say I was most productive in Smalltalk when I used "classic TDD" and mocks in conjunction. So, are other Smalltalkers interested in this topic? Do you think it worth to be presented at the conference? What are the problems you'd like to discuss there? TIA -- Dennis Schetinin

May 27, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Marcus Denker

On May 26, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki(a)vpri.org> wrote: > BTW, the page (http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel) > says: > ... > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'Fuel'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; > load. > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project latestVersion) load: #(Core Tests Benchmarks). > > And there is always an up-to-date build on Hudson: https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/job/Fuel/ This is automatically rebuild when Pharo 1.3 gets updates (which means 1-2 times per day). (And on commits to the Fuel repository, but this trigger seems to not work right now...) Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Martin Dias

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki(a)vpri.org> wrote: > >> BTW, the page (http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel) >> says: >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'Fuel'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; >> load. >> ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project =latestVersion) load: #(Core >> Tests Benchmarks). >> >> it does not appear to be a valid expression. What is the right >> expression? >> > > the = > > Hi! Sorry, now it is fixed. > Try: > > > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'Fuel'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; > load. > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project latestVersion) load: #(Core > Tests Benchmarks). > > > >> >> -- Yoshiki >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki(a)vpri.org> wrote: > BTW, the page (http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel) > says: > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'Fuel'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; > load. > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project =latestVersion) load: #(Core > Tests Benchmarks). > > it does not appear to be a valid expression. What is the right > expression? > the = Try: Gofer new squeaksource: 'Fuel'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project latestVersion) load: #(Core Tests Benchmarks). > > -- Yoshiki > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Yoshiki Ohshima

BTW, the page (http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel) says: Gofer new squeaksource: 'Fuel'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project =latestVersion) load: #(Core Tests Benchmarks). it does not appear to be a valid expression. What is the right expression? -- Yoshiki

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Yoshiki Ohshima

At Thu, 26 May 2011 09:51:00 +0200, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On May 25, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > > > At Wed, 25 May 2011 15:28:00 +0200, > > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >> One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). > >> The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. > > > > Sounds interesting! Can I learn about "hetzel" somewhere? > > > We are working on how to build minimal Pharo kernels (with the goal of a declarative bootstrap so you can build your own > version of Smalltalk running in the normal Pharo image to experiment with new language features, as one example, or > create a minimal image for deployment). > > There is some information from Nicolas Paez who worked on this when visiting RMOD last year: > > http://www.fast.org.ar/smalltalks2010/videos/Seed+project%3A+The+challenge+… > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/talks/2010-Smalltalks-Paez-Seed.pdf > > The status is that we learned a lot and continue to work on it... more to come later ;-) Yay! Declarative bootstrap is good. MicroSqueak is mostly classes and code with a bit of setup, so I thought if the tracer (MicroSqueakImageBuilder) takes somewhat different format but essentially with the same information, you can build an image and then whatever code loader that can load Compiler, you can get to a working state. But as you say, there must be details and I'm all curious to learn also! -- Yoshiki

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > On May 25, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > > > At Wed, 25 May 2011 15:28:00 +0200, > > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >> One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is > to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). > >> The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo > image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. > > > > Sounds interesting! Can I learn about "hetzel" somewhere? > > > We are working on how to build minimal Pharo kernels (with the goal of a > declarative bootstrap so you can build your own > version of Smalltalk running in the normal Pharo image to experiment with > new language features, as one example, or > create a minimal image for deployment). > > There is some information from Nicolas Paez who worked on this when > visiting RMOD last year: > > > http://www.fast.org.ar/smalltalks2010/videos/Seed+project%3A+The+challenge+… > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/talks/2010-Smalltalks-Paez-Seed.pdf > > The status is that we learned a lot and continue to work on it... more to > come later ;-) > > Ben is now working in the project. He will soon create a website inside RMOD with some more information. He has also some slides and a full report explaing about it :) > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 26, 2011