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Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Joachim Tuchel

Thanks, Steve, I couldn't make my point clearer than you did. It's great ESUG is there, and it's great that Pharo is pushing on Smalltalk the way and at the pace it does. It's good that both ESUG and Pharo are here and we all benefit a lot from both of them, as we do from other Smalltalk vendors' work and open source projects. I am not aware of the detailed financial situation of ESUG, but I would prefer to see things like multi-platform Smalltalk projects being supported/sponsored by ESUG. The multi-platform nature should be a high priority. Not all Smalltalkers can freely choose what dialect they use, and one of the goals of ESUG is (or should be) to help get all Smalltalkers in closer touch and make the Smalltalk worl a better place for all of us. So, if there is some yearly program in which the community can choose a project or platform to be supported financially, why not also support the Pharo Consortium? But also help Amber, GST, Seaside or whatever project in anotrher year. I am glad people are volunteering for the ESUG board, and I am grateful for the organizers of the ESUG conference and all the other good stuff ESUG is doing. I am also happy about the drive behind Pharo. But these are two pairs of shoes. Joachim Am 04.07.12 22:25, schrieb Steven Kelly: > Thanks for asking us. Personally I think it would be better for ESUG not to contribute financially to Pharo. In general, user groups don't contribute financially to the organizations which make the products in question - indeed, often it works the other way around, with the product organizations sponsoring user groups or their activities. > > I'm sure everyone would agree that any board members with a clear connection to Pharo should declare a conflict of interest on this issue, and refrain from discussion or voting. That's standard practice, and for good reason. Even when a board is completely open, honest, and declares even potentially perceived conflicts of interest, those outside the board will always be outsiders, and liable to feel not everything is being revealed - that's just human nature. > > It's great that the board is asking for our opinions, and I'm sure they'll make the best decision for ESUG. And whatever happens, I'm sure Pharo and other Smalltalks know ESUG is very much on their side. > > All the best, > Steve > PS useful advice on conflicts of interest for non-profits: > http://www.boardsource.org/Knowledge.asp?ID=3.389 > -- > Steven Kelly, CTO, MetaCase > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list- >> bounces(a)lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Damien Cassou >> Sent: 4. heinäkuuta 2012 18:02 >> To: ESUG Mailing list >> Subject: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >> >> The ESUG board currently considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >> (see http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012- >> June/066881.html). >> We believe that Pharo is important for the Smalltalk ecosystem. >> >> Note that ESUG is promoting Smalltalk in general and this action is in >> the same vein as previous actions such as sponsoring local Smalltalk >> groups (FAST, Catalan, Russian, ...), Smalltalk dialects >> (SqueakFoundation, etoy), development projects (Mars, DBXTalk, DrGeo >> II, SqueakVirtual Machine cleaning), and books (Seaside and GNU book). >> >> Before deciding, the board would like to gather feedback from the >> community. We want to be clear that there is a strict distinction >> between ESUG and Pharo (both consortium and association) even if some >> people are involved in both. >> >> What do you think? >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >> popular by not having them." James Iry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- --  -----------------------------------------------------------------------  Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de  Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Steven Kelly

Thanks for asking us. Personally I think it would be better for ESUG not to contribute financially to Pharo. In general, user groups don't contribute financially to the organizations which make the products in question - indeed, often it works the other way around, with the product organizations sponsoring user groups or their activities. I'm sure everyone would agree that any board members with a clear connection to Pharo should declare a conflict of interest on this issue, and refrain from discussion or voting. That's standard practice, and for good reason. Even when a board is completely open, honest, and declares even potentially perceived conflicts of interest, those outside the board will always be outsiders, and liable to feel not everything is being revealed - that's just human nature. It's great that the board is asking for our opinions, and I'm sure they'll make the best decision for ESUG. And whatever happens, I'm sure Pharo and other Smalltalks know ESUG is very much on their side. All the best, Steve PS useful advice on conflicts of interest for non-profits: http://www.boardsource.org/Knowledge.asp?ID=3.389 -- Steven Kelly, CTO, MetaCase > -----Original Message----- > From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list- > bounces(a)lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Damien Cassou > Sent: 4. heinäkuuta 2012 18:02 > To: ESUG Mailing list > Subject: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > The ESUG board currently considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > (see http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012- > June/066881.html). > We believe that Pharo is important for the Smalltalk ecosystem. > > Note that ESUG is promoting Smalltalk in general and this action is in > the same vein as previous actions such as sponsoring local Smalltalk > groups (FAST, Catalan, Russian, ...), Smalltalk dialects > (SqueakFoundation, etoy), development projects (Mars, DBXTalk, DrGeo > II, SqueakVirtual Machine cleaning), and books (Seaside and GNU book). > > Before deciding, the board would like to gather feedback from the > community. We want to be clear that there is a strict distinction > between ESUG and Pharo (both consortium and association) even if some > people are involved in both. > > What do you think? > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Alex, let me clarify my point in response to yours. You say that project X applied for sponsoring, and the board considers this now. That is completely OK. It just so happens that it might well be that (worst case) 100 % of the ESUG board members are also project X community members (some of them even in positions that could fairly be called leadership positions). In that case, the decision of the board would - whatever the outcome - be biased due to a conflict of interest, and a decision in favour of project X would have a strong smell of nepotism. Hence my original question. Which still has not been answered. Before I can give an answer to Damien's (the ESUG board's) question, I need to know that to come to a conclusion. Your initial response to my question does not count as an answer: I did not want to engage in any philosophical discussions about ideal worlds, I did not want to start any flame wars or make ESUG board members leave this list. Not. My. Plan. Preferably, I'd like to know which communities are actually represented by the body that leads / governs / whatevers this community-spanning organisation. Best, Michael

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Alexandre Bergel

[ this is my personal opinion. I may be wrong, but I do not think so ] > I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. There is no reason. Pharo will get a sponsor because people behind Pharo asked for it, in the same way that people behind GST asked. > The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect. I am pretty sure that if the Squeak community, or any other community set up a nice and reasonable proposal, the esug board will consider it. This discussion reminds me a large project that got founded recently in Chile. Everybody said they are interested in participating (and receiving money), but only a very few actually made up a clear, concise and promising proposal. Not that they were not included in the discussion and the regular meetings. The persons who did not receive the money "were too busy to write the proposal". Well... at the end they complained saying that it is not fair. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Hi, On 4 July 2012 18:36, Rob Vens <rob.vens(a)reflektis.com> wrote: > Ho ho this is not the proper place to discuss this. The ESUG board selection has always been done quite openly, but on the yearly conference, there is not even ground for any suspition, please. that is completely correct: the boards are elected by acclamation (usually) when the community is gathered at the conference. IMHO this is as transparent as it gets. Nothing to complain there. Well, yes, the procedure *could* be mentioned on the web page, but the process is OK. Best, Michael

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Rob Vens

Ho ho this is not the proper place to discuss this. The ESUG board selection has always been done quite openly, but on the yearly conference, there is not even ground for any suspition, please. Andreas could you please discuss this with the board first before venting this on the open mailing list? Op 4 jul. 2012 om 18:14 heeft Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> het volgende geschreven: > I left Squeak because I was "pissed away". > > I have no problem to leave ESUG, too. > > herewith I unsubscribe from the ESUG list. > > Have Fun > > Marcus > > > On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:13 PM, Andreas Raab wrote: > >> >>> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >>> Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:33:12 +0200 >>> Von: Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl> >>> An: Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> >>> CC: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >>> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >>> >>> >>> Hi Michael! >>> >>> Good to see you back! >>> >>>> how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of >>>> communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo? >>> >>> In an ideal World, this would be indeed important. >>> However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG board is really small. >> Really? I don't recall anyone ever asking. In fact, the whole election process of the ESUG board is a complete mystery to me personally. Googling "ESUG board election" nets me a message from 2002(!) about an upcoming election, that's it. Compare this say, with googling "Squeak board election" and you will find election results each year, plus each candidates announcement, discussions, vote counts etc. A bit more transparency would certainly help here... >> >> Regarding the original question, I think such a membership is unfair to the other open source communities. Sponsoring of specific projects with the goal of fostering the overall Smalltalk community is one thing, paying a perpetual "Pharo tax" quite another. I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect. >> >> Cheers, >> - Andreas >> >> >>> >>> And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Dave Mason

On 2012-Jul-4, at 12:13 , Andreas Raab wrote: > If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect. +1 ../Dave

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Marcus Denker

I left Squeak because I was "pissed away". I have no problem to leave ESUG, too. herewith I unsubscribe from the ESUG list. Have Fun Marcus On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:13 PM, Andreas Raab wrote: > >> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >> Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:33:12 +0200 >> Von: Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl> >> An: Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> >> CC: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >> >> >> Hi Michael! >> >> Good to see you back! >> >> > how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of >> > communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo? >> >> In an ideal World, this would be indeed important. >> However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG board is really small. > Really? I don't recall anyone ever asking. In fact, the whole election process of the ESUG board is a complete mystery to me personally. Googling "ESUG board election" nets me a message from 2002(!) about an upcoming election, that's it. Compare this say, with googling "Squeak board election" and you will find election results each year, plus each candidates announcement, discussions, vote counts etc. A bit more transparency would certainly help here... > > Regarding the original question, I think such a membership is unfair to the other open source communities. Sponsoring of specific projects with the goal of fostering the overall Smalltalk community is one thing, paying a perpetual "Pharo tax" quite another. I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect. > > Cheers, > - Andreas > > >> >> And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead. >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Andreas Raab

> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:33:12 +0200 > Von: Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > An: Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> > CC: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > Hi Michael! > > Good to see you back! > > > how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of > > communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo? > > In an ideal World, this would be indeed important. > However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG > board is really small. Really? I don't recall anyone ever asking. In fact, the whole election process of the ESUG board is a complete mystery to me personally. Googling "ESUG board election" nets me a message from 2002(!) about an upcoming election, that's it. Compare this say, with googling "Squeak board election" and you will find election results each year, plus each candidates announcement, discussions, vote counts etc. A bit more transparency would certainly help here... Regarding the original question, I think such a membership is unfair to the other open source communities. Sponsoring of specific projects with the goal of fostering the overall Smalltalk community is one thing, paying a perpetual "Pharo tax" quite another. I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect. Cheers, - Andreas > > And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi Michael! Good to see you back! > how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of > communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo? In an ideal World, this would be indeed important. However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG board is really small. And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 4, 2012