- Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

Thanks damien. I know what we did for smalltalk and for Squeak in particular. My names is written on a lot of what I did. Sadly I should have done the same in Java my h-index would be much higher :) There is a lesson in that story. Doing and been successful always make people jaleous. Apparently Smalltalk is in so good condition that it is good to shoot on one of the few organization promoting it. So I was considering looking at Javascript or Lua and may be this is the time to do that and let the sunday and happy small talkers (in the literal sense) have fun. I will check that. Marcus quitted the esug-list so this is an indication of the sickness of this wonderful community. Stef On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi ESUG members, > > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of >> communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo? > > here are the members of the ESUG's board: > > President: Stéphane Ducasse > Treasurer: Luc Fabresse > Damien Cassou > Jordi Delgado > Marcus Denker > Alain Plantec > Serge Stinckwich > > The rest of this email is my personal opinion and does not necessarily > reflect the one of the board. > > Even though I'm unsure about your definition of "representatives of > communities", I don't see myself as being one, whatever the community > you pick. When I decided I wanted to join the board this was not to > represent Smalltalk or Squeak, this was because I loved both and > wanted to spend some time helping. I got elected by participants of > the conference during the last talk, three years ago. I believe this > is the same for most other members, i.e., we don't represent a > particular Smalltalk, we just want to help and do some work for > everyone. Now, if a representative of a community wants to work with > us, we would love to receive his application. > > For 3 years now that I'm in this board, we received *a lot of* > requests for sponsoring (being projects, participation to the > conferences, books, articles, ...). If we didn't accept all requests, > I think we are very very close. Most of the times, requests arrive in > already a good shape, we see a great potential for the community or a > real need, and we accept them. Sometimes, we ask people to work some > more on the proposal and most of the time we will eventually accept > them as well. I invite any interested Smalltalker out there to send > founding proposals, we are always happy to help when we can. > > Now, let's face it: 2 of the most active participants of the ESUG > board (Marcus and Stéphane) are leaders on the Pharo project. But we, > as a community, must not forget that both where among the most active > participants of Squeak before (I'm talking about code, organization, > presentations, books, ...). These two are very active for the > Smalltalk community and have been for quite some time now. If they > decide to quit the ESUG board (and we already talked about that among > members of the board), who will step up and do their job? I think each > of them spends roughly 1h per day (probably more than that) on ESUG > tasks: preparing the conference, taking care of legal issues, > administrating the web servers, taking care of requests for > sponsoring... Not so funny jobs. They both prefer coding, believe me. > I don't see anyone else in the current board who could do their job > and we didn't receive any application to join the board for at least 3 > years. > > Finally, the board decided to raise this issue with you today for 1 > reason: we are aware of the conflict of interest! We want your opinion > about founding a particular dialect that shares some active > participants with the board itself. But while giving your opinion > please remember one thing: ESUG did help other communities in the past > and we will continue to do it. > > My even more personal opinion: would it be fair not to help Pharo > create a consortium simply because some members are so prolific that > they can be very useful for two organizations at the same time? I > don't believe so and I vote for becoming a member of the Pharo > consortium just as much as I would vote for becoming a member of any > other Smalltalk consortium/association/organization/group/whatever. > > Best regards, > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: > Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. > The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board > will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be > ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo > popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising > open source project (especially when we see that such question never > arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny > sometimes. No Stephane, it's not that. Part of it is just misinformation and I think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its usual level of transparency. Paolo

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

Thanks maarteen Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising open source project (especially when we see that such question never arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny sometimes. Stef On Jul 5, 2012, at 6:36 AM, Maarten Mostert wrote: > Being accused of conflicting interest is not very nice to hear, so please those of you concerned stay above that and with us. > I never used Pharo, But If the ESUG board decided to sponsor it, than I just respect their choice. > > @+Maarten > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 04/07/2012 23:32, Damien Cassou ha scritto: > My even more personal opinion: would it be fair not to help Pharo > create a consortium simply because some members are so prolific that > they can be very useful for two organizations at the same time? No, but it is still a conflict of interest. I would expect that Stephane and Marcus do not vote on the issue, and possibly that they do not participate in board discussions on the matter. In general I would say that money should flow the other way round (Pharo->ESUG). However, as long as the above basic principle is held, I have no objection to sponsoring the consortium. Paolo

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Geert Claes

With this post I would like to give a +1000 for ESUG to sponsor the Pharo Consortium and this is my reasoning: The past clearly shows us that ESUG does not favour one Smalltalk implementation over another, having helped projects across multiple flavours. It is also clear that anyone is welcome - and invited - to submit proposals to ESUG and they are always (from my understanding) reviewed fairly. My most important reasoning however is that it supports ESUG's main purpose in "promoting Smalltalk". Any boost in innovation, visibility of "anything" Smalltalk will end up being beneficial for the entire Smalltalk community. I have heard someone use the "a rising tide lifts all boats" idiom in this context, so if ESUG sponsoring the Pharo Consortium may result in rising the Smalltalk tide lifting all Smalltalk boats, I would say "go for it"! I reckon who on the ESUG board is and how they were/are elected has nothing to do with. In the same breath it would be nice to see commercial companies like Cincom, Gemstone, Instantiations support the Pharo Consortium for exactly the same reason. Disclaimer: ESUG also sponsors The World of Smalltalk (an initiative I started) by funding the world.st domain name, which again is intended to be a portal for anything Smalltalk. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ESUG-considers-sponsoring-the-Pharo-Consortium-tp4638… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Marten Feldtmann

Well written and argumented Steven ! Marten Am 04.07.2012 22:25, schrieb Steven Kelly: > Thanks for asking us. Personally I think it would be better for ESUG not to contribute financially to Pharo...

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Maarten Mostert

Being accused of conflicting interest is not very nice to hear, so please those of you concerned stay above that and with us. I never used Pharo, But If the ESUG board decided to sponsor it, than I just respect their choice. @+Maarten

July 5, 2012

ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Hernan Wilkinson

Hi, the smalltalk community is very small, so there is always going to be a kind of "conflict of interest". ESUG has sponsored many projects in different flavors of smalltalk and for sure, in many of them, there was one or more members of the ESUG board and other boards or groups or companies and nobody cared... I don't think that this idea has a "hidden agenda", I mean, the money it is not going to go to any ESUG board member's pocket but to somebody that will help to have a better smalltalk. Also, for me the election process of the ESUG board was always clear, open and I could saw it with my own eyes, so I have no doubts there either. ESUG has helped a lot of people and organizations related with smalltalk, it would be a pitty not to do it with pharo. I see this action as a positive one, so I think it is a good idea. In any case, companies that give money to esug that could see this as a "threat" should be the one to complain but I have not seen any doing it so far. The Smalltalk comminiy is small (ironically), let's help each other! Let's be positive! Hernan Ps: thank you for being open and ask something you are not obligated to, that shows transparency, and please do not confuse clear proceses with lack of transparency, when you DO there is always somerhing you are going to DO wrong, but at least you did! On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > > Thanks for asking us. Personally I think it would be better for ESUG not to contribute financially to Pharo. In general, user groups don't contribute financially to the organizations which make the products in question - indeed, often it works the other way around, with the product organizations sponsoring user groups or their activities. > > I'm sure everyone would agree that any board members with a clear connection to Pharo should declare a conflict of interest on this issue, and refrain from discussion or voting. That's standard practice, and for good reason. Even when a board is completely open, honest, and declares even potentially perceived conflicts of interest, those outside the board will always be outsiders, and liable to feel not everything is being revealed - that's just human nature. > > It's great that the board is asking for our opinions, and I'm sure they'll make the best decision for ESUG. And whatever happens, I'm sure Pharo and other Smalltalks know ESUG is very much on their side. > > All the best, > Steve > PS useful advice on conflicts of interest for non-profits: > http://www.boardsource.org/Knowledge.asp?ID=3.389 > -- > Steven Kelly, CTO, MetaCase > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list- > > bounces(a)lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Damien Cassou > > Sent: 4. heinäkuuta 2012 18:02 > > To: ESUG Mailing list > > Subject: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > > > The ESUG board currently considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > (see http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012- > > June/066881.html). > > We believe that Pharo is important for the Smalltalk ecosystem. > > > > Note that ESUG is promoting Smalltalk in general and this action is in > > the same vein as previous actions such as sponsoring local Smalltalk > > groups (FAST, Catalan, Russian, ...), Smalltalk dialects > > (SqueakFoundation, etoy), development projects (Mars, DBXTalk, DrGeo > > II, SqueakVirtual Machine cleaning), and books (Seaside and GNU book). > > > > Before deciding, the board would like to gather feedback from the > > community. We want to be clear that there is a strict distinction > > between ESUG and Pharo (both consortium and association) even if some > > people are involved in both. > > > > What do you think? > > > > -- > > Damien Cassou > > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > > popular by not having them." James Iry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- Hernán Wilkinson Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching Phone: +54 - 011 - 4311 - 8404 Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 email: hernan.wilkinson(a)10Pines.com site: http://www.10Pines.com Address: Paraguay 523, Floor 7 N, Buenos Aires, Argentina -- *Hernán Wilkinson Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching* *Phone: +54 - 011 - 4311 - 8404** Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 email: hernan.wilkinson(a)10Pines.com site: http://www.10Pines.com <http://www.10pines.com/>* Address: Paraguay 523, Floor 7 N, Buenos Aires, Argentina

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Damien, thanks - well noted. Let me reinforce that I do not question the intentions of anybody in particular. The personal overlaps between the two entities involved might be considered problematic, and I want to make up my mind. On 4 July 2012 23:32, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Even though I'm unsure about your definition of "representatives of > communities", I don't see myself as being one, whatever the community > you pick. Say, if someone predominantly uses one particular flavour in their daily Smalltalking life, they'd be part of that flavour's community; and being on the board, representing it. > Now, if a representative of a community wants to work with > us, we would love to receive his application. In contrast to my earlier e-mail on process transparency, I have noticed that while the election itself is transparent, the path to being eligible in the first place is not. Is there actually such a thing as a call for applications when board members' terms end? Is there a nomination phase? A Q&A period to help people make up their minds? In short, how does this work? > Now, let's face it: 2 of the most active participants of the ESUG > board (Marcus and Stéphane) are leaders on the Pharo project. But we, > as a community, must not forget that both where among the most active > participants of Squeak before (I'm talking about code, organization, > presentations, books, ...). These two are very active for the > Smalltalk community and have been for quite some time now. If they > decide to quit the ESUG board (and we already talked about that among > members of the board), who will step up and do their job? Good question; see above. > My even more personal opinion: would it be fair not to help Pharo > create a consortium simply because some members are so prolific that > they can be very useful for two organizations at the same time? I > don't believe so and I vote for becoming a member of the Pharo > consortium just as much as I would vote for becoming a member of any > other Smalltalk consortium/association/organization/group/whatever. What amount is being considered? What percentage of the ESUG budget is that? Regards, Michael

July 4, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Damien Cassou

Hi ESUG members, On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of > communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo? here are the members of the ESUG's board: President: Stéphane Ducasse Treasurer: Luc Fabresse Damien Cassou Jordi Delgado Marcus Denker Alain Plantec Serge Stinckwich The rest of this email is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect the one of the board. Even though I'm unsure about your definition of "representatives of communities", I don't see myself as being one, whatever the community you pick. When I decided I wanted to join the board this was not to represent Smalltalk or Squeak, this was because I loved both and wanted to spend some time helping. I got elected by participants of the conference during the last talk, three years ago. I believe this is the same for most other members, i.e., we don't represent a particular Smalltalk, we just want to help and do some work for everyone. Now, if a representative of a community wants to work with us, we would love to receive his application. For 3 years now that I'm in this board, we received *a lot of* requests for sponsoring (being projects, participation to the conferences, books, articles, ...). If we didn't accept all requests, I think we are very very close. Most of the times, requests arrive in already a good shape, we see a great potential for the community or a real need, and we accept them. Sometimes, we ask people to work some more on the proposal and most of the time we will eventually accept them as well. I invite any interested Smalltalker out there to send founding proposals, we are always happy to help when we can. Now, let's face it: 2 of the most active participants of the ESUG board (Marcus and Stéphane) are leaders on the Pharo project. But we, as a community, must not forget that both where among the most active participants of Squeak before (I'm talking about code, organization, presentations, books, ...). These two are very active for the Smalltalk community and have been for quite some time now. If they decide to quit the ESUG board (and we already talked about that among members of the board), who will step up and do their job? I think each of them spends roughly 1h per day (probably more than that) on ESUG tasks: preparing the conference, taking care of legal issues, administrating the web servers, taking care of requests for sponsoring... Not so funny jobs. They both prefer coding, believe me. I don't see anyone else in the current board who could do their job and we didn't receive any application to join the board for at least 3 years. Finally, the board decided to raise this issue with you today for 1 reason: we are aware of the conflict of interest! We want your opinion about founding a particular dialect that shares some active participants with the board itself. But while giving your opinion please remember one thing: ESUG did help other communities in the past and we will continue to do it. My even more personal opinion: would it be fair not to help Pharo create a consortium simply because some members are so prolific that they can be very useful for two organizations at the same time? I don't believe so and I vote for becoming a member of the Pharo consortium just as much as I would vote for becoming a member of any other Smalltalk consortium/association/organization/group/whatever. Best regards, -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 4, 2012