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Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

>> > > Sending email about this is great, because it makes the community part > of the decisions. But it doesn't eliminate the conflict of interest > inside the board. Note that CoI is not a problem, it is a fact of life, > but it must be handled properly. exactly > > When you are a member of an academic program committee, you are asked to > leave when your paper is being discussed. We are asking for something > similar in the context of the ESUG board; again, it is standard practice > and I don't see why there should be any opposition to this. As the number two of my research center, I deal with it daily for hiring people for their life, hiring phd students, engineers… And this is always the same. Shut up when concerns. Why people think that we do not apply that in ESUG board? Because of my personality? May be this is a compliment :)…. > > If I were a member of the ESUG board, I certainly would do the same on > any decision that mentioned GNU Smalltalk. Not only if one of your student send a request for summer talk, paper sponsoring or anything else. Even not related to GNU. ;) >> Now I see so much frustration in some mails that I laugh a lot. >> Personally when I wake up the morning I feel good and I know that I'm doing a good >> job for my community. Now may be I should do something else. > > I believe that you are; for both Pharo and ESUG. And I believe > everybody knows the effort that you put into promotion of Smalltalk. Thanks > But you shouldn't take things too personally: your effort requires you > to be _more_ careful about not pissing people off, not less. :) I do not know why we would be pissing people. Pissed people would be taking our actions are aggressive or wrong but this is their misinterpretations not our actions. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 05/07/2012 09:30, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: > BTW since everybody wants to give lessons here is our internal > process. A board member never votes when he has a conflict of > interest. For example when a student applies for an article > sponsoring (even 150 Euros), if a board member is in the group of the > student or may have any conflict of interest, the board member does > not take part of the discussion or the voting process. This is always > like that. You should have said this before, since it answers many questions that were asked. Nobody _wants_ to give lessons. Paolo

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

BTW since everybody wants to give lessons here is our internal process. A board member never votes when he has a conflict of interest. For example when a student applies for an article sponsoring (even 150 Euros), if a board member is in the group of the student or may have any conflict of interest, the board member does not take part of the discussion or the voting process. This is always like that. Now as a good exercise for our little community, it would be good that everybody check what he did recently not for its own little assets (my little program my precious my little business my precious) but for somebody else asset. I wrote and edited the seaside book and I should have better wrote something on ruby on rails because we earned a ridiculous amount of money and it was 4 years of work (but this does not count) and I pushed so that we get all dialects represented, while I could have simply focus on Pharo. Similarly, we sponsored conferences like FAST and Smalltalk Solutions, summerTalk projects, user groups and we are systematically promoting Smalltalk. Now I'm a bit worried about some reactions especially the rhetorical part of them. It seems to me that in our community we do not like success - probably because this is better to be the king of a small castle than a knight in a kingdom. Personally I would prefer to be able to build graphical system like D3 in Javascript with my Smalltalk but I cannot. So may be Javascript is the future of any smart smalltalker. Personally I want the success of Smalltalk and I built the tools to make it happen. Pharo is one of such tool. We built pharo because the tools in presence were not there to push the way we wanted. Just for your information, we are making pharo not for US but for people to be able to make money with it. Now if somebody would come, fork pharo and make our dream reality by being better than pharo we would be more than happy. Why because doing pharo is a pain. People complain, doing is slow, we have other agendas. I'm talking with lawyers INRIA since two years for the consortium. INRIA put 180 Keuros for pharo on the table and we are negotiating to get another 60 K. Our little team will also put 30 Keuros plus a massive amount of our free hours. Of course smart people can think that this is because this is for us. No it is not, we are building pharo for the community. In fact I would like to build other systems than pharo but so far the state of the system implementations does not let us experiment (proprietary or old systems), so we are basically forced to build pharo if we want to invent our future. May be some people do not want to have a future. But we do. Now you can not trust us or be against it this is your rights. So it would be a problem that ESUG the organization promoting Smalltalk has a problem to pay 2000/4000 Euros, when I see what our group is putting or INRIA. Seriously, if this is the case we should really be clear about that and rethink what is ESUG and also probably do something else of our free time. Stef On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: >> Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. >> The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board >> will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be >> ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo >> popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising >> open source project (especially when we see that such question never >> arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny >> sometimes. > > No Stephane, it's not that. Part of it is just misinformation and I > think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of > conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its > usual level of transparency. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Hi Stéphane, On 5 July 2012 09:07, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > How are you doing these days? living happily in Java-land - yes, that is possible ;-) -, not having abandoned Smalltalk at all. Details: http://labs.oracle.com/projects/maxine > People can propose themselves. ... Thanks for clarifying. How long are terms? > ... So the atmosphere of the board should be friendly, respectful. We experienced some problems in the past > with the organization of some satellites events and we learned the hard way. I know. There has been learning on both ends of the story, I presume, and one particular insight might have been that communication always has two ends with potential to fail, and that putting all blame on one end only merely reveals half the truth. >> What amount is being considered? What percentage of the ESUG budget is that? > > It should be either 2000 Euros or 4000 Euros or around that level. One of the corporate sponsorships then; I could have figured that one myself. :-P Regards, Michael

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Geert, On 5 July 2012 09:14, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Just curious, do you ask because you contribute funds or are you just > stirring the pot? I'm interested, that's all. Really. Best, Michael

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 05/07/2012 08:59, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: > > On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > >> Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: >>> Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. >>> The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board >>> will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be >>> ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo >>> popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising >>> open source project (especially when we see that such question never >>> arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny >>> sometimes. >> >> No Stephane, it's not that. Part of it is just misinformation and I >> think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of >> conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its >> usual level of transparency. > > Why did we send the mail if this is not about that? Sending email about this is great, because it makes the community part of the decisions. But it doesn't eliminate the conflict of interest inside the board. Note that CoI is not a problem, it is a fact of life, but it must be handled properly. When you are a member of an academic program committee, you are asked to leave when your paper is being discussed. We are asking for something similar in the context of the ESUG board; again, it is standard practice and I don't see why there should be any opposition to this. If I were a member of the ESUG board, I certainly would do the same on any decision that mentioned GNU Smalltalk. > Now I see so much frustration in some mails that I laugh a lot. > Personally when I wake up the morning I feel good and I know that I'm doing a good > job for my community. Now may be I should do something else. I believe that you are; for both Pharo and ESUG. And I believe everybody knows the effort that you put into promotion of Smalltalk. But you shouldn't take things too personally: your effort requires you to be _more_ careful about not pissing people off, not less. :) Paolo

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Geert Claes

Michael Haupt-3 wrote > > ... > > What amount is being considered? What percentage of the ESUG budget is > that? > ... > Just curious, do you ask because you contribute funds or are you just stirring the pot? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ESUG-considers-sponsoring-the-Pharo-Consortium-tp4638… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

Dear Michael How are you doing these days? >> In contrast to my earlier e-mail on process transparency, I have > noticed that while the election itself is transparent, the path to > being eligible in the first place is not. Is there actually such a > thing as a call for applications when board members' terms end? Is > there a nomination phase? A Q&A period to help people make up their > minds? People can propose themselves. Now they should show that they are not applying to show themselves. So the board will value their accomplishment for the community. For example, we appreciated so much the work of alain and jordi for the organization of esug at Brest and Barcelona that we ask them if they had some energy left for ESUG. Now it should be clear that we do not want a bad fruit in the basket because this would break ESUG board gentle and respectful atmosphere. We are doing that on our free time and it takes a lot lot lot and lot of energy and time. So the atmosphere of the board should be friendly, respectful. We experienced some problems in the past with the organization of some satellites events and we learned the hard way. ESUG is about positive energy around Smalltalk. > > In short, how does this work? > >> Now, let's face it: 2 of the most active participants of the ESUG >> board (Marcus and Stéphane) are leaders on the Pharo project. But we, >> as a community, must not forget that both where among the most active >> participants of Squeak before (I'm talking about code, organization, >> presentations, books, ...). These two are very active for the >> Smalltalk community and have been for quite some time now. If they >> decide to quit the ESUG board (and we already talked about that among >> members of the board), who will step up and do their job? > > Good question; see above. > >> My even more personal opinion: would it be fair not to help Pharo >> create a consortium simply because some members are so prolific that >> they can be very useful for two organizations at the same time? I >> don't believe so and I vote for becoming a member of the Pharo >> consortium just as much as I would vote for becoming a member of any >> other Smalltalk consortium/association/organization/group/whatever. > > What amount is being considered? What percentage of the ESUG budget is that? It should be either 2000 Euros or 4000 Euros or around that level. Notice that nobody ever complained when ESUG supported the work of John McIntosh to clean a bit the Squeak Virtual machine and it was more if I recall correctly. Now was it not in the global interest to have a stronger open-source community? May be not. ESUG decided to give a chance. May be people prefer that we do all our research and teaching in python, Javascript or Ruby? Who knows. I'm not in the mind of people and I'm happy about it :). Have a nice day. > > Regards, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: >> Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. >> The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board >> will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be >> ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo >> popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising >> open source project (especially when we see that such question never >> arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny >> sometimes. > > No Stephane, it's not that. Part of it is just misinformation and I > think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of > conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its > usual level of transparency. Why did we send the mail if this is not about that? Now I see so much frustration in some mails that I laugh a lot. Personally when I wake up the morning I feel good and I know that I'm doing a good job for my community. Now may be I should do something else. I also really like the mails from people that never put on finger in the ESUG conference and that do not know what is it to organize it, promote Smalltalk, give lecture worldwide and other little things like writing stupid books. Anyway I'm leaving on vacation and let people have fun. Stef

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

... thanks, Paolo, I was about to write that. Best, Michael On 5 July 2012 08:49, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: >> Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. >> The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board >> will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be >> ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo >> popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising >> open source project (especially when we see that such question never >> arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny >> sometimes. > > No Stephane, it's not that. Part of it is just misinformation and I > think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of > conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its > usual level of transparency. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012