- Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits > Just one little note: AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo. Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny. I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only with conflict here, but i am not a member of board, and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision. As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is consistent with that.. or i miss something? If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to sponsor Pharo? They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life, which they would rather spend with their family? As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better promoting smalltalk than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision should and must be argued. But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission.. I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else than: promoting smalltalk. > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it. > > Go Smalltalk! > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Serge Stinckwich

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits Yes, I'm mostly involved in Pharo. I'm in board but not really active at the moment because I'm living in Asia where I do some Smalltalk advocacies in the vietnamese, korean and japanese communities. > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). The board is aware of these problems and we are trying to take care of all Smalltalk communities if there need some support. Look at our promotion program here: http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Promotion If you need some support for your program or to develop a new community, just ask. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

July 5, 2012

update on the consortium poll

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi pharoers Here is so far the state of replies I compiled. If I miss you or misclassified tell me. By end of July I will build a case to ask for INRIA support. So I will refresh this list and group mails to build a convincing case. Pharo2.0 is going in the right direction. With a mini core, vector graphics, ssh, it is starting to be a nice platform for new challenges. Thanks you all for your trust. Stef So far 4000 gold 8000 silver 5000 bronze 500 sponsor 2500 individual plus 480 individual -------------------- 20480 Euros Gold (4000) RMOD 4000 Silver (2000) 2Denker http://www.Synectique.eu Sanders Cameron company 2Rivers 8000 Bronze (1000) Andy bunnett company Eggermont company MAD-Environment www.FinWorks.biz netStyle.ch 5000 Sponsors (500) Caeasar Systems (May be IMUS)?? 500 Indivudual golden (100) Stephane Ducasse Marcus Denker Schmiedl Miguel Coba Alexandre Bergel Krish Brodbeck (may be bronze) Goran Vasic Guillermo Polito Norbert Harlt Mark Smith Lorenzo schiavina Daniel Galdames Leandro Caniglia Francois Stephany Sean De Nigris John O'Keefe Tudor Girba Luc Fabresse Florent Arrignon Lawrence Trutter Sabine Knofel Yann Monclair Henrik Johanssen Hernan Wilkinson (or bronze to be defined) 2500 Normal 40 Bill schwab Herve verjus Damien cassou McLeod Max Leske Phil Back (bronze may be) Yanni Chiu Andrea Brühlmann Stefan Reichhart Niklaus Lutz Max Leske Simon Jakovina 480

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Graham McLeod

Hi All Reading the thread, I just wanted to add my .02 worth. I have no problem in ESUG sponsoring Pharo Consortium, like it has sponsored many other worthwhile Smalltalk related projects. The history of decisions taken by the board is comforting as it shows impartiality across dialects and initiatives. These facts speak more loudly than principles and discussion. The quantum of sponsorship mentioned is very reasonable in the light of other assistance given to much more focussed projects. I believe that all dialects of Smalltalk have benefitted from the work on Pharo and its use as a platform to evolve products like Seaside, Magritte, Fuel and many others which flow into the broader Smalltalk community. I would like to publicly thank all volunteers on the ESUG board and the Pharo group for their work and efforts which have made and are making major contributions. Please don't be discouraged by the discussion on this thread. C++ has users, Java enthusiasts, and Smalltalk zealots! People are passionate and want to see good things - lets harness the positive energy. At a technical level, I have had experience over 20 years of working in various Smalltalks and attempting projects in C++, Java, Java Script and various other languages. Every time I come back to the comfort zone that is Smalltalk. It is simply more "right", better and consistent than the other environments. I have looked at Python, Ruby, Coffee Script, Objective C, Erlang.... etc. There is still nothing with the breadth of capabilities, purity, accessibility and openness (in the sense that an average developer can get at the internals and implementation of the language and libraries) of Smalltalk. Yes, it is old and there are some messy bits and frustrations. Alan Kay himself has said he is frustrated that there is not something better to replace Smalltalk. What I see in the Pharo space over the last two years gives me hope that this could be it. There is a critical mass of innovation and community activity that is generating a very dynamic, capable system and eco-system. I would hate to see the very good work of many towards this dissipated when we are close to realisation of a really great environment. We should give every encouragement to those pushing things forward. Go, Stef, Damien, Luc, Marcus, et al.... Best Graham Damien Cassou wrote: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Michael Haupt<mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> How long are terms? > > as far as I know, we don't have such a thing: > > - the board has no minimum/maximum size > - anybody willing to help seriously is invited to send an email to the > board to offer his free time. Then we ask the community during the > conference if they accept this new board member. > - when somebody wants to quit to take back part of his free time, he > just does so (as Noury recently did after years and years of handling > ESUG's money, a job that requires a lot of effort and rigor). In this > case we ask all board members who is willing to take some more work to > replace the leaving member (and Luc accepted to do that, thank you > Luc). > > You are right, we should improve our communication and probably have a > dedicated web page, let me add that to my todo list :-). >

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > How long are terms? as far as I know, we don't have such a thing: - the board has no minimum/maximum size - anybody willing to help seriously is invited to send an email to the board to offer his free time. Then we ask the community during the conference if they accept this new board member. - when somebody wants to quit to take back part of his free time, he just does so (as Noury recently did after years and years of handling ESUG's money, a job that requires a lot of effort and rigor). In this case we ask all board members who is willing to take some more work to replace the leaving member (and Luc accepted to do that, thank you Luc). You are right, we should improve our communication and probably have a dedicated web page, let me add that to my todo list :-). -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Steven Kelly

Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > here are the members of the ESUG's board: > > President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo > Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo > Damien Cassou <- Pharo > Jordi Delgado <- Pharo > Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo > Alain Plantec <- Pharo > Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it. Go Smalltalk! Steve

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Joachim Tuchel (objektfabrik)

Gert, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> hat am 5. Juli 2012 um 09:43 geschrieben: > No worries, it's just that drama threads like this are destructive and don't > serve any purpose :) Not sure about that. It's some of the answers in the thread that made it that way. The question was clear: The board wanted to know what people think about this. And I guess this question was asked because they've already knew there would be a COI problem.So it was intended to serve a purpose. This is good and I am glad they ask. > The most vocal people often tend to be those who are> not even active > contributors or community members. That's what a community must handle: filter useful input from noise. > > I reckon the ESUG board should just have used the authority they were given > when elected and gone ahead with what they thought was a sound decision > (which is why there is a board). I see it like this: The ESUG board asked the community for help in preparation of a decision. If they were absolutely sure, they wouldn't have asked. We should help with input, and some people asked additional questions, hopefully the ansers will help them come up with a final opinion. > Who currently is on that board and how> they were elected is a completely > separate issue. Correct. As is the question if the Pharo efforts are good or bad. Joachim

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Joachim Tuchel (objektfabrik)

Hi Steph, Thank you very much for these insights. I must say I am a bit surprised how emotional this discussion gets. Nobody is doubting that the amount and quality of work and passion you and others put into Smalltalk as a community on one side and Pharo on the other are really worth a lot. And of course the success of Pharo is a succes for Smalltalk. We as a Community profit so much from the small and big things hapenning. But this whole discussion is about another topic. It is about whether people would like ESUG to spend between 2000 and 4000 Euros per year in support of the Pharo consortium. I think we even haven't heard enough opinions yet to judge what the community thinks. I guess you were prepared for negative responses, so what makes you upset is hopefully not the fact per se, but the rhetorics. I think ESUG should support the Pharo project. But ESUG should not seem to be an entity that somewhat guarantees a steady cash flow for Pharo. Let's put it another way: if an ESUG member/sponsor wants to support Pharo in particular, they can always go for a membership or sponsorship in the Pharo Consortium. So sponsorship is fine with me, and a cheaper membership level is also fine, even when combined with additional sponsorship (e.g. when the ESUG conference is a financial success and there's more money on the bank than needed), but I fear that a corparate membership level would bring up the question of CoI over and over again, for as long as there are people active in both entities. Which, by itself, is neither bad nor a problem from my standpoint. Thinking of ESUG as "neutral" or "independent" is an illusion, because it will always be run and sponsored by enthusiasts - and an enthusiast cannot be neutral ;-) Joachim P.S.: So what did I do for the Smalltalk Community? My company sponsors ESUG for a few years now, and I try to help promote Smalltalk by blogging and trying to motivate VA Smalltalk users (because these are the kind of Smalltalkers I am in touch with most of the time during my day job) to participate in the community. I try to transport the enthusiasm, knowledge and code from the community into legacy Smalltalk projects (again, mostly VAST). You could say I try to build a sub-community in the VAST world that somehow feels quite offline for many reasons. My company has spent quite some time and money on organizing events in which VAST users can find out they are not the last ones on earth. Together with Marten and Sebastian I do the Smalltalk Inspect Podcast, in which we try to cover all Smalltalk dialects and all kinds of topics. I know this still is far less time and passion than what you or Marcus or other Board members put into the Smalltalk community, but I hope this shows that my intention here is to help build and sustain the community, not to troll about the ESUG board. "Stéphane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> hat am 5. Juli 2012 um 09:30 geschrieben: > BTW since everybody wants to give lessons here is our internal process. A > board member never votes when he has a > conflict of interest. For example when a student applies for an article > sponsoring (even 150 Euros), if a board member is in the group of the student > or may have any conflict of interest, the board member does not take part of > the discussion or the voting process. > This is always like that. > > Now as a good exercise for our little community, it would be good that > everybody check what he did recently not for its own little > assets (my little program my precious my little business my precious) but for > somebody else asset. > I wrote and edited the seaside book and I should have better wrote something > on ruby on rails > because we earned a ridiculous amount of money and it was 4 years of work (but > this does not count) and I pushed so that we get > all dialects represented, while I could have simply focus on Pharo. > Similarly, we sponsored conferences like FAST and Smalltalk Solutions, > summerTalk projects, user groups and we are systematically promoting > Smalltalk. > > Now I'm a bit worried about some reactions especially the rhetorical part of > them. It seems to me > that in our community we do not like success - probably because this is better > to be the king of a small castle than > a knight in a kingdom. Personally I would prefer to be able to build graphical > system like D3 in Javascript with my Smalltalk but I cannot. So may be > Javascript is > the future of any smart smalltalker. > > Personally I want the success of Smalltalk and I built the tools to make it > happen. Pharo is one of such tool. We built pharo because the tools in > presence > were not there to push the way we wanted. Just for your information, we are > making pharo not for US but for people to be able to > make money with it. Now if somebody would come, fork pharo and make our dream > reality by being better than pharo we would > be more than happy. Why because doing pharo is a pain. People complain, doing > is slow, we have other agendas. > > I'm talking with lawyers INRIA since two years for the consortium. INRIA put > 180 Keuros for pharo on the table and we are negotiating to get another 60 K. > Our little team will also put 30 Keuros plus a massive amount of our free > hours. Of course smart people can think that this is because this is for us. > No it is not, > we are building pharo for the community. In fact I would like to build other > systems than pharo but so far the state of the system > implementations does not let us experiment (proprietary or old systems), so we > are basically forced to build pharo if we want to invent our future. > May be some people do not want to have a future. But we do. Now you can not > trust us or be against it this is your rights. > > So it would be a problem that ESUG the organization promoting Smalltalk has a > problem > to pay 2000/4000 Euros, when I see what our group is putting or INRIA. > Seriously, if this is the case we should really be clear about that and > rethink what is ESUG and also probably do something else of our free time. > > Stef > > > On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > > > Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: > >> Reading this thread after all we did for Smalltalk is quite taught. > >> The wolfs are back apparently. Sad period. I think the esug board > >> will have to really decide if ESUG is worth after all. Now may be > >> ESUG popularity is a problem for certain people or this is the pharo > >> popularity. May be this is good to not give a chance to a promising > >> open source project (especially when we see that such question never > >> arose when it was about other Smalltalks). Life is so funny > >> sometimes. > > > > No Stephane, it's not that. Part of it is just misinformation and I > > think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of > > conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its > > usual level of transparency. > > > > Paolo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Geert Claes

No worries, it's just that drama threads like this are destructive and don't serve any purpose :) The most vocal people often tend to be those who are not even active contributors or community members. I reckon the ESUG board should just have used the authority they were given when elected and gone ahead with what they thought was a sound decision (which is why there is a board). Who currently is on that board and how they were elected is a completely separate issue. Any conflict of interest was already highlighted and deemed acceptable when elected. To clarify, I am not a candidate, I also did not cast a vote and I am more than convinced that anyone who is willing to sacrifice their free time to contribute to ESUG will be welcomed there with open arms ... I just have a feeling the line of candidates is not that long :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ESUG-considers-sponsoring-the-Pharo-Consortium-tp4638… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Marten Feldtmann

Stephane, I see here more and more over-reactions and I quite do not understand these reactions. I can not believe, that posters here do not like the success of ESUG or behave jealous in some way. But ideas/contributions like the ones Paolo (and others) posted here are still valid and I am more than surprised, that people are angry about it. But you answered many questions and that is ok - and I've seen NO posting here so far saying, that the ESUG members are doing their job badly. ESUG has been done quite a good job in the past promoting Smalltalk in various ways. Marten

July 5, 2012