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Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Andreas Raab

Hi Damien - > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Andreas Raab <Andreas.Raab(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Here is how it is unfair: If I understand the basic process of > selecting and > > supporting projects by ESUG, then the distribution of projects > supported by > > ESUG is roughly equivalent to the popularity of the various > communities. > > This seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, and ESUG is doing a good > job > > with the various projects it supports. > > > > However, once ESUG starts giving chunks of money to particular dialects > > directly, then first of all that money is no longer spent across the > various > > dialects. > > > I would agree with you if ESUG was spending 100% of the money it has. > Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we > get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we > might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all > representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring > requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before > spending part of it. Which is fine. And perhaps there is a really simple answer then: First, sponsor all the projects that apply to ESUG. If, at the end of year, there is money left, donate it based on the relative distribution of projects over the year. So for example: ESUG budget: 15k Projects: 5 Pharo projects x 1k = 5k 2 Squeak projects x 1k = 2k 1 GST project x 2k = 2k 2 high profile papers x 500 = 1k Over the year you've spent a total of 10k on those projects. If you split (for simplicity) the remaining 5k based on the total sum used by each project (yeah, yeah, I know there other ways of doing this, I'm just making an example) then you would end up with: Pharo: 2.500 EUR Squeak: 1000 EUR GST: 1000 EUR VW: 500 EUR And except from the difficulty of who to give the money to in the case of VW, the entire process is both transparent and fair. And has an incentive for the various dialects to go out and work with ESUG. > > There is nothing wrong with sponsoring Pharo projects by ESUG. What's > wrong > > is giving the money, which would otherwise be spent in some relation to > the > > popularity of each dialect, to one dialect only. > > > In the past, ESUG supported Squeak e.V. and the Squeak VM. What is the > difference? Squeak e.V. is not about developing Squeak as such you can't compare it membership in the Pharo consortium (it would be more like sponsoring a book or so which ESUG certainly does). As for the Squeak VM, first of all I have no clue who got sponsored by ESUG. Probably John Macintosh because I know neither me, nor Ian, nor Eliot, nor David, nor Dan, nor John ever got any support from ESUG. Secondly, (and I'm guessing here since I really don't know who got sponsored for what) I would think that the scope was probably rather specific, i.e., support for this or that Mac feature or somesuch, rather than "oh, just do some Squeak VM development we don't care what it is" which is the style of support for the Pharo consortium. I think sponsoring specific projects is good, it's handing out money without specific goals and targets that I don't like. Cheers, - Andreas

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Damien Cassou

Hi Andreas On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Andreas Raab <Andreas.Raab(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Here is how it is unfair: If I understand the basic process of selecting and > supporting projects by ESUG, then the distribution of projects supported by > ESUG is roughly equivalent to the popularity of the various communities. > This seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, and ESUG is doing a good job > with the various projects it supports. > > However, once ESUG starts giving chunks of money to particular dialects > directly, then first of all that money is no longer spent across the various > dialects. I would agree with you if ESUG was spending 100% of the money it has. Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before spending part of it. > So for an approx. 3000 EUR Pharo membership the board could > sponsor 20 students with 150 EUR each. And while it may be that 15 of those > are indeed Pharo related, there is still sponsorshop done for the remaining > 5 which would fall under the table if the money went directly to Pharo. > That's seems obviously unfair. Please encourage students around you to submit sponsoring requests. We will be really happy to support them. > Secondly, the membership in Pharo is perpetual; if some other project raises > in popularity there will *still* 100% of the money be going to Pharo. For > eternity. That's just as unfair. I agree with you, a permanent sponsorship is probably not the best idea and we should discuss the options. Still, we are not talking about 100% of the money. > There is nothing wrong with sponsoring Pharo projects by ESUG. What's wrong > is giving the money, which would otherwise be spent in some relation to the > popularity of each dialect, to one dialect only. In the past, ESUG supported Squeak e.V. and the Squeak VM. What is the difference? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Andreas Raab

> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:29:53 +0200 > Von: Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > An: Maarten Mostert <maarten.mostert(a)wanadoo.fr> > CC: esug-list(a)lists.esug.org, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > > Being accused of conflicting interest is not very nice to > hear, so please those of you concerned stay above that and with us. > > Well, this is something that should be avoided. But again, the community > is so small, that is hard to avoid. We almost have permanent interest > conflict in the research track of esug. > > > I never used Pharo, But If the ESUG board decided to sponsor it, than I > just respect their choice. > > > I hardly see how supporting Pharo can be seen as unfair. Improving Pharo > will help the whole Smalltalk community. It looks like clear to me. Here is how it is unfair: If I understand the basic process of selecting and supporting projects by ESUG, then the distribution of projects supported by ESUG is roughly equivalent to the popularity of the various communities. This seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, and ESUG is doing a good job with the various projects it supports. However, once ESUG starts giving chunks of money to particular dialects directly, then first of all that money is no longer spent across the various dialects. So for an approx. 3000 EUR Pharo membership the board could sponsor 20 students with 150 EUR each. And while it may be that 15 of those are indeed Pharo related, there is still sponsorshop done for the remaining 5 which would fall under the table if the money went directly to Pharo. That's seems obviously unfair. Secondly, the membership in Pharo is perpetual; if some other project raises in popularity there will *still* 100% of the money be going to Pharo. For eternity. That's just as unfair. There is nothing wrong with sponsoring Pharo projects by ESUG. What's wrong is giving the money, which would otherwise be spent in some relation to the popularity of each dialect, to one dialect only. Cheers, - Andreas

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Nowak, Helge <hnowak(a)cincom.com> wrote: > Initially empty in IE, closed IE tab, tried Firefox: non-empty => IE wouldn't want to be the bad guy and displays it after opening the page in a new tab > > You may update note 2 accordingly ;-) done, thank you for your feedback :-) -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda

by Nowak, Helge

Initially empty in IE, closed IE tab, tried Firefox: non-empty => IE wouldn't want to be the bad guy and displays it after opening the page in a new tab You may update note 2 accordingly ;-) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Damien Cassou Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2012 14:24 An: Stephan Eggermont Cc: ESUG Mailing list Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Empty, iphone ios 5 safari Have you read "note 2" and applied it thoroughly? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 July 2012 11:42, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > I think there's a misunderstanding about what "conflict of interest" means. It doesn't mean that person is bad. It doesn't mean they are abusing their power. It doesn't mean they would get money through it. All it means is that they have an interest in the matter at hand, in addition to their role on the board. > > In academic circles, often you can't review a paper if you have been a co-author with one of its authors in the last N years. That's a similar kind of thing - nobody's saying that because of that, you'd accept the paper, or would be incapable of being objective, or the paper's authors would pay you(!). It's just agreed that it's better if you don't review it. > You miss an important detail: an academic circles is a competitive environment, and that's why it is completely reasonable to have such rules and watch for potential conflict(s) , because most of those rules were developed by taking competition in mind. ESUG, in contrast, does not operates in competitive environment, and based solely on the good will and enthusiasm of the people. So i actually wondering why we blindly applying the principles from competitive environment to something which is not? > One of the reasons why people with "conflicts of interest" don't get to vote or take part in the discussion, is that people with an extra interest are likely to get annoyed with the discussion. That's bad for the community - those people may be demotivated, and the rest may feel less trust in their board. > Every decision made will divide people on those who fine with it and those who not.. You cannot make everyone happy. This is fact of reality :) The only way how to not make new enemies is to not do anything.. > In any case, as far as I understand it, the ESUG board makes decisions about sponsorship - not the ESUG membership. They've heard our opinions, both for and against, and they can go ahead and make their decision. I for one will support them, whatever they decide. Not because as individuals they've done so much for Smalltalk, for so little reward, but because they're smart people who we've trusted to make ESUG decisions on our behalf. > > All the best, > Steve > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Igor Stasenko [mailto:siguctua@gmail.com] >> Sent: 5. heinäkuuta 2012 12:22 >> To: Steven Kelly; ESUG Mailing list >> Subject: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >> >> On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: >> > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, >> about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a >> quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which >> Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and >> I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, >> please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what >> the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: >> > >> >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> >> >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo >> >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo >> >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo >> >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo >> >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo >> >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo >> >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various >> Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving >> most hits >> > >> >> Just one little note: >> AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo. >> Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny. >> I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only >> with conflict here, but i am not a member of board, >> and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of >> that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision. >> >> As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is >> consistent with that.. or i miss something? >> >> If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct >> personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to >> sponsor Pharo? >> They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life, >> which they would rather spend with their family? >> >> >> As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there >> other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better >> promoting smalltalk >> than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher >> priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision >> should and must be argued. >> But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold >> money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission.. >> >> I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such >> decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else >> than: promoting smalltalk. >> >> > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it >> is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand >> why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to >> mention potential conflicts of interest. >> > >> > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? >> First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something >> for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's >> brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk >> in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a >> sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list >> may be a little tense :). >> > >> > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, >> and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG >> sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully >> nobody gets upset about it. >> > >> > Go Smalltalk! >> > Steve >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Esug-list mailing list >> > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Empty, iphone ios 5 safari Have you read "note 2" and applied it thoroughly? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda

by Stephan Eggermont

Empty, iphone ios 5 safari Stephan Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone Op 5 jul. 2012 om 13:22 heeft Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> het volgende geschreven: > Hi, > > can you see the ESUG 2012 agenda on > > www.esug.org/Conferences/2012/Conference-Schedule > > ? Some people reports an empty agenda > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda

by Smalltalk

Empty in Opera, not empty in Firefox From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Kusche Sent: donderdag 5 juli 2012 13:42 To: Damien Cassou Cc: ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda just to add: Even in Agenda View, no events are listed! -- Karsten Kusche - Dipl. Inf. - karsten(a)heeg.de<mailto:karsten@heeg.de> Georg Heeg eK - Köthen Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812 Am Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2012 um 13:22 schrieb Damien Cassou: Hi, can you see the ESUG 2012 agenda on www.esug.org/Conferences/2012/Conference-Schedule<http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2012/Conference-Schedule> ? Some people reports an empty agenda -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org<mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2012 agenda

by Karsten Kusche

just to add: Even in Agenda View, no events are listed! -- Karsten Kusche - Dipl. Inf. - karsten(a)heeg.de Georg Heeg eK - Köthen Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812 Am Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2012 um 13:22 schrieb Damien Cassou: > Hi, > > can you see the ESUG 2012 agenda on > > www.esug.org/Conferences/2012/Conference-Schedule (http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2012/Conference-Schedule) > > ? Some people reports an empty agenda > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org (mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org) > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

July 5, 2012