- Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Old Smalltalk Magazines on offer - cost of postage only

by David Pennington

Thank you - this has now been taken. David Pennington Totally Objects The Smalltalk Specialists On 5 Jul 2012, at 10:48, David Pennington wrote: > Hi everyone. Way back in the 1990s there were two publications floating around: > > Doug Shaker used to run 'The Smalltalk Store' and produced some nice hard copy magazines called 'The Smalltalk Gazette' > > I have three of these - Vol 2 Issue 1 and Volume 3 Issue 1 & 2. - May 1995, March 1996 and 'Summer' 1996 > > I have 8 copies of 'The Smalltalk Report' - as follows: > Feb. 1992 Vol.1 No.5 > Sep. 1994 Vol. 4 No. 1 > March - April 1995 Vol.4 No. 4 (Photocopy) > Feb. 1995 Vol. 4 No.5 > May 1995 Vol 4 No. 7 > July/August 1995 Vol.4 No. 9 > Feb. 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 > March - April 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 (i know this is a duplication in date but it is a different magazine). > > These have articles by the likes of Kent Beck, Alan Knight and Jay Almarode. > > These are available to the first one to request them: > > ***** However, together they weight 1.2 kilos so postage will be quite expensive and I must ask the taker to pay that. > UK £6.00, Europe, £9.00 and Rest of the world £17.00 (these are actual Royal Mail small packet charges). > > I would need paying by Paypal but if you don't have a Paypal account, you can still use their service to pay by credit card on a one off basis. > I would send you an invoice which makes it easier. > > Private e-mail to david@totallyobjects will secure. > > DavidESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > David Pennington > Totally Objects > The Smalltalk Specialists > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Janko Mivšek

Hi guys, One concrete proposal: let the ESUG board write a short report after every meeting and decision like sponsoring some project. Like Squeak board is doing regularly: http://squeakboard.wordpress.com/. I'm pretty sure with such simple act most of suspicions expressed in this thread will vanish immediately. Best regards Janko On 05. 07. 2012 09:42, Marten Feldtmann wrote: > Stephane, > > I see here more and more over-reactions and I quite do not understand > these reactions. > > I can not believe, that posters here do not like the success of ESUG or > behave jealous in some way. > > But ideas/contributions like the ones Paolo (and others) posted here are > still valid and I am more than surprised, that people are angry about it. > > But you answered many questions and that is ok - and I've seen NO > posting here so far saying, that the ESUG members are doing their job > badly. ESUG has been done quite a good job in the past promoting > Smalltalk in various ways. > > Marten > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Janko Mivšek

On 05. 07. 2012 11:22, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct > personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to > sponsor Pharo? Because we are quite "opiniated" community it is clear what is a personal benefit in that case :) Money is not the only thing someone can benefit from... What counts is how evenly ESUG is spreading its sponsorship around Smalltalk projects. Because if ESUG sponsor Pharo, it can and it is already sponsoring others too. So, is there one who asked for ESUG sponsorship and was denied? Let me ask directly (I'm a direct man, as those who know me, know very well :) Is Squeak community asked for ESUG sponsorship recently? Best regards Janko -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Hi, in response to Damien's original question: On 4 July 2012 17:01, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > What do you think? Having learned about the processes involved, about the board's policies for handling conflicts of interest, and its composition, I'm fine with it. I have to add that the amount of negative emotion triggered by the question I asked for purely informational reasons has put me off a bit. That was completely uncalled-for. "The wolfs are back" - seriously, what is that supposed to mean? I understand the emotional attachment of people to the work they do, but none of what I asked was intended to start this. Personally I'd like to see GST, VW, GemStone ... "people" on the board some time. It would make ESUG's broad intentions more obvious. I'd also love to be able to contribute more directly myself, which I can't at this time. Best, Michael

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > feel free to use as much of the text below as you like. thank you very much Michael, I appreciate a lot. We will discuss your text on the board mailing list and I will update the website. Thank you again. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Michael Haupt

Hi Damien, On 5 July 2012 10:40, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > You are right, we should improve our communication and probably have a > dedicated web page, let me add that to my todo list :-). feel free to use as much of the text below as you like. ----- Number of Seats and Terms The ESUG Board has, in theory, an unlimited number of seats. More helping hands are always welcome. Board members' terms are also unlimited; in general, they step down as they see fit. Eligibility and Nomination Each community member - that is, every Smalltalker - is eligible for ESUG Board membership if they are willing to devote a certain amount of time to community matters (reviewing funding proposals, taking care of web pages and servers, managing finances and conferences, etc.). Board members are self-nominated: who intends to join the board should send an e-mail to the board (board(a)esug.org [??]) and/or the ESUG members list (esug-list(a)lists.esug.org) introducing themselves. Election Board members are elected directly by the gathered community in a plenary session at an ESUG conference. ----- Best, Michael

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by jdelgado＠lsi.upc.edu

Well, I just want to make some points clear, and I am going to do that politely, which is what nettiquette demands, though that is not the way I naturally react to infinite nonsensical threads in my inbox. >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> (...) >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo Just paying a little bit of attention should make you clear that a large part of our work is being developed with Squeak, from teaching at the university (however, this is going to change soon in favour of Pharo, for reasons that have *nothing* to do with ESUG) to maintaining and updating our S4A (Scratch for Arduino). Also, our Fluidinfo software was developed using Squeak. The Smalltalk Tutor presented at ESUG'11 was developed using Pharo and GNU Smalltalk. Thus, we have never used a Smalltalk that is not open source, but saying that we use only Pharo is just wrong. Maybe the board (and a whole lot of people) uses mainly Pharo, but that is probably because they use whatever they want to use and somehow Pharo is what they think is the best tool for their project. And if someone wants support from ESUG, probably the best way to get it is asking for it. I do not remember how many times ESUG has rejected to offer support to any Smalltalk initiative (maybe zero?). In fact, ESUG itself has offered support to local groups *before* the groups asked for it. Bests, Jordi

July 5, 2012

Old Smalltalk Magazines on offer - cost of postage only

by David Pennington

Hi everyone. Way back in the 1990s there were two publications floating around: Doug Shaker used to run 'The Smalltalk Store' and produced some nice hard copy magazines called 'The Smalltalk Gazette' I have three of these - Vol 2 Issue 1 and Volume 3 Issue 1 & 2. - May 1995, March 1996 and 'Summer' 1996 I have 8 copies of 'The Smalltalk Report' - as follows: Feb. 1992 Vol.1 No.5 Sep. 1994 Vol. 4 No. 1 March - April 1995 Vol.4 No. 4 (Photocopy) Feb. 1995 Vol. 4 No.5 May 1995 Vol 4 No. 7 July/August 1995 Vol.4 No. 9 Feb. 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 March - April 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 (i know this is a duplication in date but it is a different magazine). These have articles by the likes of Kent Beck, Alan Knight and Jay Almarode. These are available to the first one to request them: ***** However, together they weight 1.2 kilos so postage will be quite expensive and I must ask the taker to pay that. UK £6.00, Europe, £9.00 and Rest of the world £17.00 (these are actual Royal Mail small packet charges). I would need paying by Paypal but if you don't have a Paypal account, you can still use their service to pay by credit card on a one off basis. I would send you an invoice which makes it easier. Private e-mail to david@totallyobjects will secure. DavidESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> David Pennington Totally Objects The Smalltalk Specialists

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Steven Kelly

I think there's a misunderstanding about what "conflict of interest" means. It doesn't mean that person is bad. It doesn't mean they are abusing their power. It doesn't mean they would get money through it. All it means is that they have an interest in the matter at hand, in addition to their role on the board. In academic circles, often you can't review a paper if you have been a co-author with one of its authors in the last N years. That's a similar kind of thing - nobody's saying that because of that, you'd accept the paper, or would be incapable of being objective, or the paper's authors would pay you(!). It's just agreed that it's better if you don't review it. One of the reasons why people with "conflicts of interest" don't get to vote or take part in the discussion, is that people with an extra interest are likely to get annoyed with the discussion. That's bad for the community - those people may be demotivated, and the rest may feel less trust in their board. In any case, as far as I understand it, the ESUG board makes decisions about sponsorship - not the ESUG membership. They've heard our opinions, both for and against, and they can go ahead and make their decision. I for one will support them, whatever they decide. Not because as individuals they've done so much for Smalltalk, for so little reward, but because they're smart people who we've trusted to make ESUG decisions on our behalf. All the best, Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Stasenko [mailto:siguctua@gmail.com] > Sent: 5. heinäkuuta 2012 12:22 > To: Steven Kelly; ESUG Mailing list > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: > >> > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo > >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo > >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo > >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo > >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo > >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving > most hits > > > > Just one little note: > AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo. > Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny. > I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only > with conflict here, but i am not a member of board, > and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of > that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision. > > As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is > consistent with that.. or i miss something? > > If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct > personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to > sponsor Pharo? > They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life, > which they would rather spend with their family? > > > As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there > other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better > promoting smalltalk > than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher > priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision > should and must be argued. > But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold > money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission.. > > I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such > decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else > than: promoting smalltalk. > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to > mention potential conflicts of interest. > > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list > may be a little tense :). > > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully > nobody gets upset about it. > > > > Go Smalltalk! > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Alexandre Bergel

> Being accused of conflicting interest is not very nice to hear, so please those of you concerned stay above that and with us. Well, this is something that should be avoided. But again, the community is so small, that is hard to avoid. We almost have permanent interest conflict in the research track of esug. > I never used Pharo, But If the ESUG board decided to sponsor it, than I just respect their choice. I hardly see how supporting Pharo can be seen as unfair. Improving Pharo will help the whole Smalltalk community. It looks like clear to me. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 5, 2012