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Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] humane assessment / moose courses

by HwaJongOh

Pity! I already fixed all my travel reservations. HwaJong Oh 2012. 7. 22., 아침 5:46, Tudor Girba 작성: > Hi, > > Humane assessment is a method for making software engineering decisions. Assessing software systems to make decisions is a critical activity that needs to be approached explicitly during development. Humane assessment is made possible by the Moose analysis platform. > > > I am organizing a couple of courses in Bern that might be of interest to people on this list: > > Humane Assessment Primer (August 17) > - This course is relevant for both managers and engineers. It covers assessment economics and the means to integrate humane assessment in the development process and in the organization > - http://www.humane-assessment.com/courses/humane-assessment-primer > > Moose Apprentice (September 6-7) > - This course is relevant for engineers. This is an introductory hands-on course on using the Moose analysis platform for putting humane assessment into practice > - http://www.humane-assessment.com/courses/moose-apprentice > > > If you are interested in participating, please contact me directly. > > > Cheers, > Doru > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 21, 2012

[ANN] humane assessment / moose courses

by Tudor Girba

Hi, Humane assessment is a method for making software engineering decisions. Assessing software systems to make decisions is a critical activity that needs to be approached explicitly during development. Humane assessment is made possible by the Moose analysis platform. I am organizing a couple of courses in Bern that might be of interest to people on this list: Humane Assessment Primer (August 17) - This course is relevant for both managers and engineers. It covers assessment economics and the means to integrate humane assessment in the development process and in the organization - http://www.humane-assessment.com/courses/humane-assessment-primer Moose Apprentice (September 6-7) - This course is relevant for engineers. This is an introductory hands-on course on using the Moose analysis platform for putting humane assessment into practice - http://www.humane-assessment.com/courses/moose-apprentice If you are interested in participating, please contact me directly. Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, one might have better chances to win by moving slower."

July 21, 2012

Wolf Pack Programming Workshop in Berlin

by Nowak, Helge

Dear Smalltalkers in and around Berlin, we are organizing a Wolf Pack Programming workshop in Berlin. It is free of charge and open to OO developers, Smalltalkers and non-Smalltalkers, interested in learning about Real-Time Collaboration in software development. It will take place on August 9th from 18:00 to 23:00 at the offices of Nokia Gate 5 (many thanks to Nokia!!). Workshop seats are limited. Further information you'll find here: https://www.xing.com/events/wolf-pack-programming-workshop-1116038 If you are not a XING member (and don't want to become one) simply send me an email and I will sign you up. Please forward the information to anybody who might be interested. Cheers Helge ************************************************************** Helge Nowak Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG Am Kronberger Hang 4 D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts. Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494 Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402 Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495 Email: mailto:hnowak@cincom.com <mailto:hnowak@cincom.com> Twitter: @nowagil Web: http://www.cincom.com <http://www.cincom.com/> All about Cincom Smalltalk: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com <http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/> Vorträge und Workshops zu Real-Time Collaboration: GI Karlsruhe (4.7. und 11.7.) http://rg-karlsruhe.gi.de/veranstaltungen/2012.html <http://rg-karlsruhe.gi.de/veranstaltungen/2012.html> Agile World München (12.7.) http://agileworld.de/ <http://agileworld.de/> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. -- Albert Einstein Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653) Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent: Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB 5069) **************************************************************

July 20, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] [Vm-dev] Pharo 1.4 "Summer" released!

by stephane ducasse

thanks esteban for this considerable effort. Thanks for the INRIA consortium building money too :). Stef > We are proud to announce the summer release of Pharo 1.4! > You can find information about Pharo at: http://www.pharo-project.org > > About this release. > > We integrated 30 fixes (the rounded number is completely casual) and integrated some tools that users feedback showed as necessary, specially the inclusion of OmniBrowser as part of the core for 1.4. As a result of all this changes and fixes, the stability of this version is a lot better and we are really happy with it. > > Structural changes to the image: > > - Backport configurations browser from 2.0. This will easy the loading of packages for everybody, specially newcomers. > - Integrated ProfStef. Again, useful for newcomers. > - Integrated Spotlight. Easy to find classes and methods. > - Integrated OmniBrowser. Nautilus will wait to 2.0 to be core, but it is still loadable. > - Integrated Keymapping. This is in fact a sub-product of the inclusion of Spotlight, but the framework is powerful and it deserves its inclusion too :) > - Updated Zinc to latest version. > > Complete list of bugs fixed: > > - 5665: bug on new ecompletion/ocompletion, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5665 > - 5773: Have access to the original event in PLuggableButtonMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5773 > - 5584: File Browser not recognizing cs and st if filename has more than one point, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5584 > - 5667: Renaming a file just deletes it due to missing #fileNameFromFormattedItem:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5667 > - 5445: Broken command-line arguments in 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5445 > - 5679: Removing a trait does not remove trait methods from class, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5679 > - 5722: Be able to remove traits from class definition, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5722 > - 5858: DateAndTime >>#hash, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5858 > - 5833: More robust allSuperclassesIncluding:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5833 > - 5966: DropListMorph do not pop the list when the text field is clicked, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5966 > - 5627: "MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "displayWorld" is nil" on clicking the red Menu-Halo., http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5627 > - 5742: BallonMorph shows flyover help using an extra line, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5742 > - 6150: During snapshot: Send cr after Transcript message for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6150 > - 6147: Code completion in all tools for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6147 > - 6189: [BUG]: Port to Pharo 1.4 - stdin hangs until EOF, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6189 > - 6143: MIME decoding and Unicode not working, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6143 > - 6188: [BUG]: (1.4) Put back the correct order in #asert:equals:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6188 > - 6187: [Bug]: (1.4) Mouse down events are being processed twice, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6187 > - 6117: SimplifiedChineseEnvironment should implement leadingChar, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6117 > - 6082: Missed translated selector for the dialog title in the ColorChooserMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6082 > - 6231: FileList revert, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6231 > - 6303: [BUG]: Completion DNU in Inspector/Object Explorer for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6303 > - 6305: StartupPreferences "run once" broken, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6305 > - 6324: For Pharo 1.4 disable StartupPreferences only for Windows, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6324 > - 6313: failing test: MorphicTests.Event.EventHandlerTest.testKeyStrokeFromMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6313 > - 6352: StartupPreferences loads non-st files in 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6352, , > - 6373: Add #version to OSPlatform, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6373 > - 6366: [Bug]: In 1.4, Finder UI DNU guessTypeByName:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6366 > - 6343: move Windows on screen should take in account the task bar, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6343 > - 6386: [BUG]: [1.4]: New ProcessSpecificVariables & Running Processes, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6386 > > Not bad, isn't? > > Thanks a lot to all who contributed with fixes, reports and suggestions. > > The Pharo Team

July 19, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] [Vm-dev] Pharo 1.4 "Summer" released!

by Tudor Girba

Hi, Not bad at all :). Moose already builds since a week on top of the pre summer release (14455). Now, it's building on the summer one. Thanks, Doru On 18 Jul 2012, at 17:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > We are proud to announce the summer release of Pharo 1.4! > You can find information about Pharo at: http://www.pharo-project.org > > About this release. > > We integrated 30 fixes (the rounded number is completely casual) and integrated some tools that users feedback showed as necessary, specially the inclusion of OmniBrowser as part of the core for 1.4. As a result of all this changes and fixes, the stability of this version is a lot better and we are really happy with it. > > Structural changes to the image: > > - Backport configurations browser from 2.0. This will easy the loading of packages for everybody, specially newcomers. > - Integrated ProfStef. Again, useful for newcomers. > - Integrated Spotlight. Easy to find classes and methods. > - Integrated OmniBrowser. Nautilus will wait to 2.0 to be core, but it is still loadable. > - Integrated Keymapping. This is in fact a sub-product of the inclusion of Spotlight, but the framework is powerful and it deserves its inclusion too :) > - Updated Zinc to latest version. > > Complete list of bugs fixed: > > - 5665: bug on new ecompletion/ocompletion, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5665 > - 5773: Have access to the original event in PLuggableButtonMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5773 > - 5584: File Browser not recognizing cs and st if filename has more than one point, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5584 > - 5667: Renaming a file just deletes it due to missing #fileNameFromFormattedItem:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5667 > - 5445: Broken command-line arguments in 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5445 > - 5679: Removing a trait does not remove trait methods from class, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5679 > - 5722: Be able to remove traits from class definition, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5722 > - 5858: DateAndTime >>#hash, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5858 > - 5833: More robust allSuperclassesIncluding:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5833 > - 5966: DropListMorph do not pop the list when the text field is clicked, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5966 > - 5627: "MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "displayWorld" is nil" on clicking the red Menu-Halo., http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5627 > - 5742: BallonMorph shows flyover help using an extra line, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5742 > - 6150: During snapshot: Send cr after Transcript message for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6150 > - 6147: Code completion in all tools for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6147 > - 6189: [BUG]: Port to Pharo 1.4 - stdin hangs until EOF, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6189 > - 6143: MIME decoding and Unicode not working, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6143 > - 6188: [BUG]: (1.4) Put back the correct order in #asert:equals:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6188 > - 6187: [Bug]: (1.4) Mouse down events are being processed twice, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6187 > - 6117: SimplifiedChineseEnvironment should implement leadingChar, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6117 > - 6082: Missed translated selector for the dialog title in the ColorChooserMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6082 > - 6231: FileList revert, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6231 > - 6303: [BUG]: Completion DNU in Inspector/Object Explorer for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6303 > - 6305: StartupPreferences "run once" broken, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6305 > - 6324: For Pharo 1.4 disable StartupPreferences only for Windows, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6324 > - 6313: failing test: MorphicTests.Event.EventHandlerTest.testKeyStrokeFromMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6313 > - 6352: StartupPreferences loads non-st files in 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6352, , > - 6373: Add #version to OSPlatform, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6373 > - 6366: [Bug]: In 1.4, Finder UI DNU guessTypeByName:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6366 > - 6343: move Windows on screen should take in account the task bar, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6343 > - 6386: [BUG]: [1.4]: New ProcessSpecificVariables & Running Processes, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6386 > > Not bad, isn't? > > Thanks a lot to all who contributed with fixes, reports and suggestions. > > The Pharo Team -- www.tudorgirba.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."

July 19, 2012

Pharo 1.4 "Summer" released!

by Esteban Lorenzano

We are proud to announce the summer release of Pharo 1.4! You can find information about Pharo at: http://www.pharo-project.org About this release. We integrated 30 fixes (the rounded number is completely casual) and integrated some tools that users feedback showed as necessary, specially the inclusion of OmniBrowser as part of the core for 1.4. As a result of all this changes and fixes, the stability of this version is a lot better and we are really happy with it. Structural changes to the image: - Backport configurations browser from 2.0. This will easy the loading of packages for everybody, specially newcomers. - Integrated ProfStef. Again, useful for newcomers. - Integrated Spotlight. Easy to find classes and methods. - Integrated OmniBrowser. Nautilus will wait to 2.0 to be core, but it is still loadable. - Integrated Keymapping. This is in fact a sub-product of the inclusion of Spotlight, but the framework is powerful and it deserves its inclusion too :) - Updated Zinc to latest version. Complete list of bugs fixed: - 5665: bug on new ecompletion/ocompletion, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5665 - 5773: Have access to the original event in PLuggableButtonMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5773 - 5584: File Browser not recognizing cs and st if filename has more than one point, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5584 - 5667: Renaming a file just deletes it due to missing #fileNameFromFormattedItem:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5667 - 5445: Broken command-line arguments in 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5445 - 5679: Removing a trait does not remove trait methods from class, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5679 - 5722: Be able to remove traits from class definition, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5722 - 5858: DateAndTime >>#hash, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5858 - 5833: More robust allSuperclassesIncluding:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5833 - 5966: DropListMorph do not pop the list when the text field is clicked, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5966 - 5627: "MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "displayWorld" is nil" on clicking the red Menu-Halo., http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5627 - 5742: BallonMorph shows flyover help using an extra line, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5742 - 6150: During snapshot: Send cr after Transcript message for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6150 - 6147: Code completion in all tools for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6147 - 6189: [BUG]: Port to Pharo 1.4 - stdin hangs until EOF, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6189 - 6143: MIME decoding and Unicode not working, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6143 - 6188: [BUG]: (1.4) Put back the correct order in #asert:equals:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6188 - 6187: [Bug]: (1.4) Mouse down events are being processed twice, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6187 - 6117: SimplifiedChineseEnvironment should implement leadingChar, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6117 - 6082: Missed translated selector for the dialog title in the ColorChooserMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6082 - 6231: FileList revert, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6231 - 6303: [BUG]: Completion DNU in Inspector/Object Explorer for 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6303 - 6305: StartupPreferences "run once" broken, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6305 - 6324: For Pharo 1.4 disable StartupPreferences only for Windows, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6324 - 6313: failing test: MorphicTests.Event.EventHandlerTest.testKeyStrokeFromMorph, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6313 - 6352: StartupPreferences loads non-st files in 1.4, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6352, , - 6373: Add #version to OSPlatform, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6373 - 6366: [Bug]: In 1.4, Finder UI DNU guessTypeByName:, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6366 - 6343: move Windows on screen should take in account the task bar, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6343 - 6386: [BUG]: [1.4]: New ProcessSpecificVariables & Running Processes, http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6386 Not bad, isn't? Thanks a lot to all who contributed with fixes, reports and suggestions. The Pharo Team

July 18, 2012

9th Innovation Technology Awards - Reminder

by jdelgado

Hi, Reminder: 29 days to deadline Have you written innovative Smalltalk? The developers of any Smalltalk-based software can enter by submitting a 3-5min video of their software. Entrants demo their systems in a session at the end of Monday August 27th 2012, after which the conference attendees vote. (A vote consists in providing a sorted list of 3 preferred pieces of software.) The top 3 teams with the most innovative software will receive, respectively, 500 Euros, 300 Euros and 200 Euros. The results are announced in the Awards ceremony that is held during the social event. Applicants should provide the following information on the conference registration server. Once you have registered your personal info, an 'Awards' menu allows submitting your software. You can provide this information when you first register, or login again later and update your details. The registration server will open soon. You can start preparing your software right now though. Info to provide: Name of the software Licence information (free, shareware, or commercial) Name of the Smalltalk dialect used Name, Affiliation and Country of developers Besides, it would be great if the submission could include: URL for a video (3-5 min) showing a screencast / demo of the software URL for downloading the software or at least a runnable demo Deadline: August 15 Any Smalltalker can apply (students, companies, ...). The presented piece of code/software should be written in Smalltalk or directly support Smalltalk (e.g. Smalltalk VM). All Smalltalk dialects are accepted. The applicant should be "strongly related" to the presented code, be it as an author, as owner of the copyright/copyleft, or as an official representative of the copyright/copyleft owner. Bests Jordi -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/9th-Innovation-Technology-Awards-Reminder-tp4640271.h… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 17, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

Ok I'm resting now on holidays but I understand your point. Now to reply to your question: have a look at the welcome slide of last year esug there are pie chart about where esug is spending money and the percentage it represents. 4K is less than two Summer Projects - where often we do not have real output. :) Our goal is to make sure that we can always take the risk not to break even and that we can continue to organize ESUG. Some years we make money like at Brest, Barcelona and sometimes we lose money like at Amsterdam - even if the conference was great. We have no umbrella or insurance so we are picky about our actions but at the same time we want to get impact and move the community. Stef PS: now I have a couple of questions of us: - what really exciting happened recently in our little computer world? d3 the javascript framework? luaJit? Dart? I do not count the crazy number of excellents JS or Ruby projects nor the Java one. - I see a couple but not much in our micro world: Amber, Pharo, Xtream, FS, Roassal, Athens, PetitParser, Seaside (now getting old) - Passion is cool but rationally why should somebody start a project in Smalltalk nowadays? when we can see the ecosystem of Java in terms of libraries (soon it will be the same with JS)? So as a little community how can we create a niche where wealth can bloom? I think that this is with such mindset that people should think about what ESUG is doing and what they could be doing, they are plenty of simple actions. Now the goal of Pharo is to create such a niche. ***We are not doing Pharo for the fun or the fame***, I would love not to have to do it, I would prefer to be able to use a nice cross platform smalltalk with amazingly well design libraries and the rest… but so far we had to do it, so we do it and we try to give it a real chance. Stef > Stef, > > I partly understand your frustration about this dsicussion. But take a step back: how many people said they do not want ESUG to help sponsor the Pharo consortium? If I remember correctly, nobody said it's completely unacceptable. > > Most commenters either said they fully support the idea, some expressed doubts about the fact that ESUG joining the Pharo Consortium could water lines that should better be sharp, just to avoid possible problems for either ESUG or the community. People who expressed their worries came up with real arguments, maybe not always expressed in a clear or "neutral" way. I can only see one or two comments which either say "I'd rather not want ESUG to do that" or strictly are negative about the idea. > > So I am not sure I see the reason why you and Marcus are so upset about this thread and the fact that doubts/worries were expressed. The way you react to counter-arguments probably keeps some people from joining this thread, most of which might even support the suggested idea per se. > > To me the essence of the thread so far is that most people like the idea of ESUG supporting the Pharo Consortium, but some have doubts whether Membership would be better than sponsorship. And the arguments that were brought up make sense. > > So we should possibly rather use this thread to find out what ESUG can do to supprt the evolution of Pharo and how it should best do it. > > I think it already became obvious that it's neither about the amount of 4K p.a. nor the question if ESUG would lose neutrality (is it even possible?), but only about how to do it without risking that it seems as if ESUG is misused for Pharo's advantage. > > Maybe all people really ask for is that ESUG makes it more transparent what it does with money that it uses to sponsor. At least that is my feeling when I skim through some of the comments. And it's probably understandable: would 4000 Euros be more like 100% of the money ESUG donates to Smalltalk efforts (no matter if lectures, books, student volunteers, project sponsorship, whatever) or is it closer to 30%. What is the plan for years in which the conference is a financial desaster, would ESUG still give 4K to Pharo and nothing to anybody else? > > I think between the lines people are only asking questions, not accusing you or anybody else of corruption, bad intentions or anything like that. All they want to make sure is that the good work that has been done will continue and bare fruit. > > Does it make us a bad community? I don't think so. > We are a caring community, and some of us do really invest time and emotion into Smalltalk, some by helping ESUG and/or Pharo directly, some by doing something else. > > > Joachim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 12.07.12 08:27, schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: >> Simply thanks. >> >> And not counting the amount of hours organizing ESUG (I even payed all the registrations to the conferences I organized)!!!! >> Silly me. >> >> Stef >> >> >>> >>> Steve, >>> >>> I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that ! >>> >>> If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€ stop stop stop !!) >>> >>> Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!! >>> >>> Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better ! >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> @+Maarten, >>> >>> >>> >>>> Message du 06/07/12 09:00 >>>> De : "Steven Kelly" >>>> A : esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> Copie à : >>>> Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >>>> >>>> Hi Stef, >>>> >>>> You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions. >>>> >>>>> This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was >>>>> programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board >>>>> was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak >>>>> foundation. >>>> >>>> I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions. >>>> >>>>>> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger >>>>>> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !! >>>>> >>>>> I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press >>>>> and marketing. It would be really funny. >>>>> VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association >>>>> to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh >>>>> a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot. >>>> >>>> Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past. >>>> >>>> Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support. >>>> >>>> Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG. >>>> >>>> If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> Steve >>>> >>>>> On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, >>>>> about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a >>>>> quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which >>>>> Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and >>>>> I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, >>>>> please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what >>>>> the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: >>>>>> >>>>>>> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President: Stéphane Ducasse> > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse> > >> Damien Cassou> > >> Jordi Delgado> > >> Marcus Denker> > >> Alain Plantec> > >> Serge Stinckwich> > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving >>>>> most hits >>>>>> >>>>>> If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it >>>>> is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand >>>>> why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to >>>>> mention potential conflicts of interest. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? >>>>> First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something >>>>> for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's >>>>> brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk >>>>> in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a >>>>> sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list >>>>> may be a little tense :). >>>>>> >>>>>> No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, >>>>> and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG >>>>> sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully >>>>> nobody gets upset about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Go Smalltalk! >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 15, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Joachim Tuchel

Stef, I partly understand your frustration about this dsicussion. But take a step back: how many people said they do not want ESUG to help sponsor the Pharo consortium? If I remember correctly, nobody said it's completely unacceptable. Most commenters either said they fully support the idea, some expressed doubts about the fact that ESUG joining the Pharo Consortium could water lines that should better be sharp, just to avoid possible problems for either ESUG or the community. People who expressed their worries came up with real arguments, maybe not always expressed in a clear or "neutral" way. I can only see one or two comments which either say "I'd rather not want ESUG to do that" or strictly are negative about the idea. So I am not sure I see the reason why you and Marcus are so upset about this thread and the fact that doubts/worries were expressed. The way you react to counter-arguments probably keeps some people from joining this thread, most of which might even support the suggested idea per se. To me the essence of the thread so far is that most people like the idea of ESUG supporting the Pharo Consortium, but some have doubts whether Membership would be better than sponsorship. And the arguments that were brought up make sense. So we should possibly rather use this thread to find out what ESUG can do to supprt the evolution of Pharo and how it should best do it. I think it already became obvious that it's neither about the amount of 4K p.a. nor the question if ESUG would lose neutrality (is it even possible?), but only about how to do it without risking that it seems as if ESUG is misused for Pharo's advantage. Maybe all people really ask for is that ESUG makes it more transparent what it does with money that it uses to sponsor. At least that is my feeling when I skim through some of the comments. And it's probably understandable: would 4000 Euros be more like 100% of the money ESUG donates to Smalltalk efforts (no matter if lectures, books, student volunteers, project sponsorship, whatever) or is it closer to 30%. What is the plan for years in which the conference is a financial desaster, would ESUG still give 4K to Pharo and nothing to anybody else? I think between the lines people are only asking questions, not accusing you or anybody else of corruption, bad intentions or anything like that. All they want to make sure is that the good work that has been done will continue and bare fruit. Does it make us a bad community? I don't think so. We are a caring community, and some of us do really invest time and emotion into Smalltalk, some by helping ESUG and/or Pharo directly, some by doing something else. Joachim Am 12.07.12 08:27, schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: > Simply thanks. > > And not counting the amount of hours organizing ESUG (I even payed all the registrations to the conferences I organized)!!!! > Silly me. > > Stef > > >> >> Steve, >> >> I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that ! >> >> If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€ stop stop stop !!) >> >> Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!! >> >> Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better ! >> >> Regards, >> >> @+Maarten, >> >> >> >>> Message du 06/07/12 09:00 >>> De : "Steven Kelly" >>> A : esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> Copie à : >>> Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium >>> >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions. >>> >>>> This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was >>>> programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board >>>> was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak >>>> foundation. >>> >>> I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions. >>> >>>>> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger >>>>> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !! >>>> >>>> I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press >>>> and marketing. It would be really funny. >>>> VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association >>>> to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh >>>> a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot. >>> >>> Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past. >>> >>> Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support. >>> >>> Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG. >>> >>> If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure. >>> >>> All the best, >>> Steve >>> >>>> On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: >>>> >>>>> Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, >>>> about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a >>>> quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which >>>> Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and >>>> I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, >>>> please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what >>>> the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: >>>>> >>>>>> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >>>>>> >>>>>> President: Stéphane Ducasse> > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse> > >> Damien Cassou> > >> Jordi Delgado> > >> Marcus Denker> > >> Alain Plantec> > >> Serge Stinckwich> > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving >>>> most hits >>>>> >>>>> If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it >>>> is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand >>>> why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to >>>> mention potential conflicts of interest. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? >>>> First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something >>>> for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's >>>> brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk >>>> in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a >>>> sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list >>>> may be a little tense :). >>>>> >>>>> No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, >>>> and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG >>>> sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully >>>> nobody gets upset about it. >>>>> >>>>> Go Smalltalk! >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Johan Brichau

Dear all, In response to the original question: I think that bootstrapping the Pharo consortium is a legitimate target for ESUG sponsoring. The goals is to create a sustainable Smalltalk principally sponsored by PME industry. In that way, Pharo is the direct harvester of the funds but Smalltalk benefits in general if this project succeeds. I also think the contribution should be revised yearly (this goes without saying) and it should be in proportion to the amount of funding that is given/available to other projects. Given the history of ESUG (and the current board in particular), I see no reason to doubt the honest intentions. The opening of this question on the mailinglist is a testament to that. Best regards Johan Brichau disclaimer: I am concerned in the sense that my company will contribute to the consortium as well. I use Pharo and am the local organizer for the ESUG conference this year. This should make my 'conflict of interest' clear as well ;-) On 05 Jul 2012, at 15:43, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi Andreas > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Andreas Raab <Andreas.Raab(a)gmx.de> wrote: >> Here is how it is unfair: If I understand the basic process of selecting and >> supporting projects by ESUG, then the distribution of projects supported by >> ESUG is roughly equivalent to the popularity of the various communities. >> This seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, and ESUG is doing a good job >> with the various projects it supports. >> >> However, once ESUG starts giving chunks of money to particular dialects >> directly, then first of all that money is no longer spent across the various >> dialects. > > > I would agree with you if ESUG was spending 100% of the money it has. > Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we > get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we > might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all > representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring > requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before > spending part of it. > > >> So for an approx. 3000 EUR Pharo membership the board could >> sponsor 20 students with 150 EUR each. And while it may be that 15 of those >> are indeed Pharo related, there is still sponsorshop done for the remaining >> 5 which would fall under the table if the money went directly to Pharo. >> That's seems obviously unfair. > > > Please encourage students around you to submit sponsoring requests. We > will be really happy to support them. > > >> Secondly, the membership in Pharo is perpetual; if some other project raises >> in popularity there will *still* 100% of the money be going to Pharo. For >> eternity. That's just as unfair. > > > I agree with you, a permanent sponsorship is probably not the best > idea and we should discuss the options. Still, we are not talking > about 100% of the money. > > >> There is nothing wrong with sponsoring Pharo projects by ESUG. What's wrong >> is giving the money, which would otherwise be spent in some relation to the >> popularity of each dialect, to one dialect only. > > > In the past, ESUG supported Squeak e.V. and the Squeak VM. What is the > difference? > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 12, 2012