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Re: [Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

by Frank Shearar

The Squeak Oversight Board would like to see GSoC projects continue under the European Smalltalk User Group. The Squeak community plans to present several projects this year. frank On 8 February 2014 09:50, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Dear community > > On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com janko is kind of declaring > that ESUG was not doing a good job managing > GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact. Personally > if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does not have > anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and stress. Note > in addition that we never interferred with the choice or anything. > > I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend > time, money and be treated like that. > Sorry! We are sad but this is like that. > > Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the > fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo. > Where are the research teams and teachers? Of course: the mails of janko > are just so nice. I let you judge. > > It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not to > organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG. > > About motivations for my proposal: > > 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' . And > this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations to > choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs. > > 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let we > avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more > independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that. > > > > I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you as > easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that > some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source > smalltalk. May be the losers theory. > > I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much calmer > than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that is a nice > proof in itself. > > Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua, Javascript, > ruby and python, clojure that we should fight. > > Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative. > > Stef > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name > Date: 8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1 > To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com > Reply-To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com > > Dear mentors, > > I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name. > Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs, as the > name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization therefore > doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity. > > Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to deadline, > decision needs to be done soon. > > Best regards > Janko > > --- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors%2Bunsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google. ESUG is > an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax forms and so on. > > Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive money > for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall? > > One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that it > was the same organisation that is already in the books of google. > > And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost money > (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots > than got in with the money from google). > We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit: Google > only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going from the > airpot > to the hotel). > > > What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We had > last year the fast that > a) it was very expensive for ESUG > b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay the > same as google > c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put “Google > Summer of Code” on the CV. > > The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So we > ask if it is really worth to spend the money > if even the students are not happy about it. > > And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be easier > to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks: I think this is a dumb idea. > > Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They just > need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit > my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do to > be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just > *insane*. It’s a description of death itself. > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Feb. 9, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Moving on with GSOC2014?

by Steven Kelly

+1. It would be a great service to Smalltalk if we could keep discussions like these calm and on topic. ________________________________ From: Esug-list on behalf of Sean DeNigris Sent: Sat 08/02/2014 21:04 To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com Cc: ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Moving on with GSOC2014? I think "Moving On" is the perfect subject. This debate is surreal - creating issues and drama out of thin air. While it's a great demonstration of the passion we all have for Smalltalk, there seems to be some real damage being done. Bottom Line: I agree that it is too late to change anything for this year. And when we do discuss it, let's take a big step back. The two issues Janko raised were: - "Smalltalk" as a name may be better received by students - Within the Smalltalk community, there is perceived bias of ESUG toward Pharo Let's take them one at a time: =="Smalltalk" as a name may be better received by students== 1. Are we having trouble finding quality students now? If so, it pays to discuss. But if we are happy with the current results, IIABDFI 2. If we need to improve, is this particular improvement worth risking: - the possibility that the continuity of ESUG may have helped our acceptance by Google - the tremendous resources, whether time/energy/financial, put in by ESUG ==Within the Smalltalk community, there is perceived bias of ESUG toward Pharo== There's really only one thing to say about this. As it stands now, there is one person's perception of other people's perception. While as Smalltalkers, we can all appreciate the meta-ness of that ;), if such a perception exists, let those who perceive it stand up and give some evidence. Let's focus on the facts, make the best decision for our community, and get back to work.

Feb. 8, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Moving on with GSOC2014?

by Johan Fabry

+1 on all this. On Feb 8, 2014, at 4:04 PM, Sean DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > I think "Moving On" is the perfect subject. This debate is surreal - creating issues and drama out of thin air. While it's a great demonstration of the passion we all have for Smalltalk, there seems to be some real damage being done. > > Bottom Line: I agree that it is too late to change anything for this year. > > And when we do discuss it, let's take a big step back. The two issues Janko raised were: > - "Smalltalk" as a name may be better received by students > - Within the Smalltalk community, there is perceived bias of ESUG toward Pharo > > Let's take them one at a time: > > =="Smalltalk" as a name may be better received by students== > 1. Are we having trouble finding quality students now? If so, it pays to discuss. But if we are happy with the current results, IIABDFI > 2. If we need to improve, is this particular improvement worth risking: > - the possibility that the continuity of ESUG may have helped our acceptance by Google > - the tremendous resources, whether time/energy/financial, put in by ESUG > > ==Within the Smalltalk community, there is perceived bias of ESUG toward Pharo== > There's really only one thing to say about this. As it stands now, there is one person's perception of other people's perception. While as Smalltalkers, we can all appreciate the meta-ness of that ;), if such a perception exists, let those who perceive it stand up and give some evidence. > > Let's focus on the facts, make the best decision for our community, and get back to work. > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Feb. 8, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Moving on with GSOC2014?

by Sean DeNigris

I think "Moving On" is the perfect subject. This debate is surreal - creating issues and drama out of thin air. While it's a great demonstration of the passion we all have for Smalltalk, there seems to be some real damage being done. Bottom Line: I agree that it is too late to change anything for this year. And when we do discuss it, let's take a big step back. The two issues Janko raised were: - "Smalltalk" as a name may be better received by students - Within the Smalltalk community, there is perceived bias of ESUG toward Pharo Let's take them one at a time: =="Smalltalk" as a name may be better received by students== 1. Are we having trouble finding quality students now? If so, it pays to discuss. But if we are happy with the current results, IIABDFI 2. If we need to improve, is this particular improvement worth risking: - the possibility that the continuity of ESUG may have helped our acceptance by Google - the tremendous resources, whether time/energy/financial, put in by ESUG ==Within the Smalltalk community, there is perceived bias of ESUG toward Pharo== There's really only one thing to say about this. As it stands now, there is one person's perception of other people's perception. While as Smalltalkers, we can all appreciate the meta-ness of that ;), if such a perception exists, let those who perceive it stand up and give some evidence. Let's focus on the facts, make the best decision for our community, and get back to work.

Feb. 8, 2014

Moving on with GSOC2014?

by Paolo Bonzini

As things stand now, I don't think there is enough mutual trust between ESUG and Janko to proceed with GSOC2014. I think either the name is changed to "Smalltalk" as Janko proposed, which many people have objected to, or he should take a step back. I have experience with GSOC having served as admin for the GNU project in 2011 so, if necessary, I volunteer to run the organization as admin (and as ESUG). I want to point out _very_ clearly, from the beginning that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with any "extra slots" like there were last year. This would be something for ESUG to sort out if they have the money. Now, I cannot deny that I haven't been involved very much in Smalltalk programming for the last few years. On the other hand administration is mostly bureaucratic work, and I clearly have no bias in favor or against any particular dialect. Regards, Paolo

Feb. 8, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi Paolo during the last ESUg board meeting we discussed (post mortem conference analysis and yearly assessment) and arrived to the same conclusion. Stef > Janko, I don't think that anyone has any doubt about that. The number of proposals is obviously influenced by the popularity of dialects, but I'm 101% sure that prospective mentors are going to vote for them according to the value of the proposal and not the chosen dialect. > > I also don't see the point of investing so much into your own selection system. Google's is "interesting" in some cases, but it's gotten better and better every year. You're free of course to do what you want as the org admin, but I think the choice can only make things more confusing. > > Paolo > >> That's why I propose to go more >> independent under new name 'Smalltalk', besides a clearly better >> visibility of such name of course. >> >> I invite you to follow the debate on GSoC mentor list: >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors >> >> All mentors with voting rights on past GSoCs please join back to this >> mailing list and help with debate: >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/join > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 8, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 08/02/2014 11:25, Janko Mivšek ha scritto: > Which is to make GSoC attractive > to all Smalltalkers by removing the last doubt about the any bias > towards any Smalltalk or group. Janko, I don't think that anyone has any doubt about that. The number of proposals is obviously influenced by the popularity of dialects, but I'm 101% sure that prospective mentors are going to vote for them according to the value of the proposal and not the chosen dialect. I also don't see the point of investing so much into your own selection system. Google's is "interesting" in some cases, but it's gotten better and better every year. You're free of course to do what you want as the org admin, but I think the choice can only make things more confusing. Paolo > That's why I propose to go more > independent under new name 'Smalltalk', besides a clearly better > visibility of such name of course. > > I invite you to follow the debate on GSoC mentor list: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors > > All mentors with voting rights on past GSoCs please join back to this > mailing list and help with debate: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/join

Feb. 8, 2014

Fwd: Esse status

by Dennis Schetinin

I've just found I didn't send this e-mail to ESUG list. Fixing it now: --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> Date: 2014-02-06 10:20 GMT+04:00 Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Esse status To: DeNigris Sean <sean(a)clipperadams.com> Hi Sean, The code is available here: http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Esse.html. I'm not sure this is the final version, but one of the most "recent" ones. Also, I've attached a .rar file with results Pavel submitted to Google (in case, you can't access them from their site). There are two major problems with the project. 1. The code quality is really low. I think, it's not Smalltalk-ish code at all. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to control code in 2012, and was able to manage it only in a fraction of how I would like it to be in 2013. It's really hard to do in GSoC (as it is more feature-oriented and focused on "external" result, not internal quality), but I hope now I understand how to do it (in case I'll take part as tutor, of course). 2. The project suffers from using "conventional" (old) graphics engine. This problem was addressed by a student in one of the thesis works I gave last year, but with only partial success. And worse, for some reasons, the student is not available right now and I can't get the code she wrote. This is for the first time and really frustrating me :( I still think the topic is really important, can be widely used in both applications and development process itself to the advantage of Pharo, and is really interesting. -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-06 DeNigris Sean <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: > - Boundless and zoomable interfaces with Pharo. Continuation of > http://gsoc2012.esug.org/projects/esse using Athens. Perhaps creating > some development tools. > > What was accomplished? Where is the code? How and where to load it? > > Thanks. > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Feb. 8, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

by Stéphane Ducasse

+ 1 :) > the only thing that I can say is that you cannot say “ESUG is biased” and not wait a response… if you make accusations you will have the concerned people reacting. > Imagine I say in list “Janko is a bad person, but lets avoid that discussion”… obviously that will not happen (and please notice, I’m not saying you are, I’m just using it as an example of a bad choice of argument). > > Esteban

Feb. 8, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

by Stéphane Ducasse

> Guys, could you please stop this debate and focus all this energy on > proposing good topics instead? Try to actually accomplish something? this is what I’m doing since years. > Is this what we want to show as a community? Hasn't this discussion done > enough harm already to the image we show to the world? Come on... Let's > try to be a better community together, not a worse one. Exactly so people should start not to piss on us :) And judge on what we are doing: - new lectures in cameron - support prague community - supporting FAST - supporting new books - pushing to get new lectures (delft, lugano and others I hope that they will be able to do so) Stef >> Dear Smalltalkers, >> >> Stef is overreacting as always, going off-topic and don't want to see >> the real reasons behind this proposal. Which is to make GSoC attractive >> to all Smalltalkers by removing the last doubt about the any bias >> towards any Smalltalk or group. That's why I propose to go more >> independent under new name 'Smalltalk', besides a clearly better >> visibility of such name of course. >> >> I invite you to follow the debate on GSoC mentor list: >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors >> >> All mentors with voting rights on past GSoCs please join back to this >> mailing list and help with debate: >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/join >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> >> >> >> Dne 08. 02. 2014 10:50, piše Stéphane Ducasse: >>> Dear community >>> >>> On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com> janko is kind of >>> declaring that ESUG was not doing a good job managing >>> GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact. >>> Personally if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does >>> not have anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and >>> stress. Note in addition that we never interferred with the choice or >>> anything. >>> >>> I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend >>> time, money and be treated like that. >>> Sorry! We are sad but this is like that. >>> >>> Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the >>> fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo. >>> Where are the research teams and teachers? Of course: the mails of >>> janko are just so nice. I let you judge. >>> >>> It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not >>> to organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG. >>> >>>> About motivations for my proposal: >>>> >>>> 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' . >>>> And this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations >>>> to choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs >>>> <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/list/public/google/gsoc2013>. >>>> >>>> 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let >>>> we avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more >>>> independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that. >>> >>> >>> I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you >>> as easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that >>> some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source >>> smalltalk. May be the losers theory. >>> >>> I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much >>> calmer than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that >>> is a nice proof in itself. >>> >>> Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua, >>> Javascript, ruby and python, clojure that we should fight. >>> >>> Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> *From: *Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)gmail.com >>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@gmail.com>> >>>> *Subject: **[gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name* >>>> *Date: *8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1 >>>> *To: %2Asmalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com> >>>> *Reply-To: %2Asmalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com> >>>> >>>> Dear mentors, >>>> >>>> I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name. >>>> Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs, >>>> as the name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization >>>> therefore doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity. >>>> >>>> Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to >>>> deadline, decision needs to be done soon. >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> Janko >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Janko Mivšek >>>> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors%2Bunsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google. >>> ESUG is an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax >>> forms and so on. >>> >>> Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive >>> money for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall? >>> >>> One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that >>> it was the same organisation that is already in the books of google. >>> >>> And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost >>> money (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots >>> than got in with the money from google). >>> We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit: >>> Google only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going >>> from the airpot >>> to the hotel). >>> >>> >>> What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We >>> had last year the fast that >>> a) it was very expensive for ESUG >>> b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay >>> the same as google >>> c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put >>> “Google Summer of Code” on the CV. >>> >>> The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So >>> we ask if it is really worth to spend the money >>> if even the students are not happy about it. >>> >>> And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be >>> easier to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks: I think this is a >>> dumb idea. >>> >>> Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They >>> just need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit >>> my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do >>> to be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just >>> *insane*. It’s a description of death itself. >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> > > > -- > Nicolas Petton > http://nicolas-petton.fr > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 8, 2014