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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Marcus Denker

On 31 Jul 2014, at 13:09, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Johan, > > I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what is not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks. > Squeak definitly never had that goal. When I discovered it it was explicitly stated that is was “Work in progress based on Smalltalk 80 with which it is still reasonably compatible”. > By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, non-Smalltalk" corner. That is ok, yet has consequences. Yes, the freedom to do things that are not in all the other Smalltalks already. Not because these are “not Smalltalk”, only because they where not there in the past, even though maybe they should have. Marcus

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Andres Valloud

On 7/31/14 4:09 , Helge Nowak wrote: > Dear Johan, > > I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what is > not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I > considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the > Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks. > > By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, non-Smalltalk" > corner. That is ok, yet has consequences. One of those is that in this > light Pharo is leaving the Smalltalk community. So, how do you define "Smalltalk community"? Andres. > Whether you reckon the > word "divorce" for that departure aggressive is your personal feeling. > Divorce is a usual term describing the splitting of a former whole. I > don't find it aggressive. > > Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved - > to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community in > emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies that > that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I don't > think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. If > it was intended to say that Pharo wants to move away from some Smalltalk > concept (technical or non-technical) it should be said so, and whith > regards to which concept and into what differing direction. There are > many ways to the future. No problem with that. Smalltalk will walk its path. > > Cheers > Helge > „Wege entstehen dadurch, dass man sie geht.“, Franz Kafka > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Von:* Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > *An:* Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> > *CC:* "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; > "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" > <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > *Gesendet:* 12:24 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 > *Betreff:* Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" > > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de > <mailto:hknowak@yahoo.de>> wrote: > > > Dear Pharoers, > > > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live > Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … > we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we > want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > > • Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > > Well, the question may also be: what IS Smalltalk? The ANSI Standard? > ST-80? Whose implementation IS Smalltalk in that case? I think many > current implementations may safely say that they are Smalltalk-inpired. > > > • All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > > I think you are overgeneralizing. Doru is saying that Pharo is not > sticking to (let’s say) the historical concept of Smalltalk. Sure, you > may imply from that that some Smalltalks ARE sticking to that concept. > But IMO it is not valid to conclude that he is saying that ALL of them > are like that. > > > • The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community > that gave them birth > > I don’t follow your reasoning. Divorce is a very strong and aggressive > statement. I don’t see that from what Doru is saying. Could you provide > more detail for your train of thought? > > > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the > Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > > > Just my 0.02EUR ... > > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org > <http://emailcharter.org/><--- > > Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry > PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Helge Nowak

Dear Clément, thank you for your valuable contribution. So, what you are saying is that none of the Smalltalks around (VA Smalltalk, GemStone, Smalltalk/X, Dolphin, VisualWorks, ObjectStudio etc, pp.) is Smalltalk. Kent Beck once used the term "balkanization". The point of my email was to open eyes to not run into that behaviour! It won't help the Smalltalk community - to which I still count Pharo ... and hope you do too! Cheers Helge ________________________________ Von: Clément Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 13:00 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" 2014-07-31 12:05 GMT+02:00 Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de>: Dear Pharoers, > >I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth > > >I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Well, I tried to open a smalltalk-80 image recently and it didn't work on the Pharo VM. In addition, it seems that recent Pharo images cannot run on the Xerox-D microcoded machines. So I think clearly Pharo is not Smalltalk for obvious backward compatibility issues. I love mails about this topic it really makes my day each time :-). Clement >Cheers >Helge > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > >

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Helge Nowak

Dear Johan, I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what is not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks. By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, non-Smalltalk" corner. That is ok, yet has consequences. One of those is that in this light Pharo is leaving the Smalltalk community. Whether you reckon the word "divorce" for that departure aggressive is your personal feeling. Divorce is a usual term describing the splitting of a former whole. I don't find it aggressive. Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. If it was intended to say that Pharo wants to move away from some Smalltalk concept (technical or non-technical) it should be said so, and whith regards to which concept and into what differing direction. There are many ways to the future. No problem with that. Smalltalk will walk its path. Cheers Helge „Wege entstehen dadurch, dass man sie geht.“, Franz Kafka ________________________________ Von: Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 12:24 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > • Pharo is NOT Smalltalk Well, the question may also be: what IS Smalltalk? The ANSI Standard? ST-80? Whose implementation IS Smalltalk in that case? I think many current implementations may safely say that they are Smalltalk-inpired. > • All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future I think you are overgeneralizing. Doru is saying that Pharo is not sticking to (let’s say) the historical concept of Smalltalk. Sure, you may imply from that that some Smalltalks ARE sticking to that concept. But IMO it is not valid to conclude that he is saying that ALL of them are like that. > • The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I don’t follow your reasoning. Divorce is a very strong and aggressive statement. I don’t see that from what Doru is saying. Could you provide more detail for your train of thought? > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Just my 0.02EUR ... ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Marcus Denker

On 31 Jul 2014, at 12:05, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > The whole thing started by the fact that there are lots of great things to do that Smalltalk did not yet do. (That are 100% in line with the *idea* of Smalltalk, and that are very natural and clearly the next step). But if we say that we are Smalltalk, then people will immediately request 100% compatibility forever. We actually had exactly that case. Someone told us that for *every* change we need to first sync with all Smalltalk Vendors and all other open source Smalltalks and only of they are ok (and implement the same at the same time) we are allowed to e.g. add a new API in Pharo core classes. Reason: “Pharo is Smalltalk, it says right so on the website”. So Pharo is Smalltalk in the sense of being a reflective, dynamic, always improving environment. It is *not* Smalltalk in the sense of a finished, non-changing artefact. Marcus

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Clément Bera

2014-07-31 12:05 GMT+02:00 Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de>: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live > Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we > want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to > move towards the future”. This implies three things: > > 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that > gave them birth > > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo > community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > Well, I tried to open a smalltalk-80 image recently and it didn't work on the Pharo VM. In addition, it seems that recent Pharo images cannot run on the Xerox-D microcoded machines. So I think clearly Pharo is not Smalltalk for obvious backward compatibility issues. I love mails about this topic it really makes my day each time :-). Clement > > Cheers > Helge > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Johan Fabry

On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > • Pharo is NOT Smalltalk Well, the question may also be: what IS Smalltalk? The ANSI Standard? ST-80? Whose implementation IS Smalltalk in that case? I think many current implementations may safely say that they are Smalltalk-inpired. > • All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future I think you are overgeneralizing. Doru is saying that Pharo is not sticking to (let’s say) the historical concept of Smalltalk. Sure, you may imply from that that some Smalltalks ARE sticking to that concept. But IMO it is not valid to conclude that he is saying that ALL of them are like that. > • The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I don’t follow your reasoning. Divorce is a very strong and aggressive statement. I don’t see that from what Doru is saying. Could you provide more detail for your train of thought? > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Just my 0.02EUR ... ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

July 31, 2014

"Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Helge Nowak

Dear Pharoers, I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Cheers Helge

July 31, 2014

Pharo success stories

by Stéphane Ducasse

"Pharo success stories" is getting started at http://www.pharo.org/success TrentoSur http://trentosur.com looks so sexy Please send me information about yours they will be added to the pending queue Stef

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG 2014 REMINDER: 11th Innovation Technology Awards

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Jan, I see the exact same behavior on Safari 7.05 on Mac. So how can we propose a solution??? Joachim Am 28.07.14 um 20:41 schrieb Jan Vrany: > Hi Jordi, > > thanks for reminder :-) > > >> Applicants should provide the following information on the conference >> registration server. Once you have registered your personal info, an >> 'Awards' menu allows submitting your software. You can provide this >> information when you first register, or login again later and update >> your details. > > Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it does not work for me. > > When I log in, I see top menu (items in capital on back background) > and second menu (normal letters, turquoise background). None contains > 'Awards' though the second contains 'Proposed Awards', so I guess > this is what you meant. > > When clicking 'Proposed Awards' I see a page showing: > > Submitted awards > Add > Name (D) > Total: 0 > > I found no way to add a new proposal. The 'Add' text is not > clickable. Could you please give me a hint what I'm doing wrong? > > All the best, Jan > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

July 29, 2014