- Esug-list - lists.esug.org

The problem with Smalltalk: no decent namespace implementation?

by James Foster

On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:17 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: On 7/31/2014 3:56 PM, James Foster wrote: >> On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:26 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: >> >>> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >>> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). >> In what way does GemStone/S not have “a decent namespace implementation”? > > It's been ages since I worked with Gemstone, so the following may be way off. > What I recall is that Gemstone allows per-session bindings for global names but only 'once' for all the code, IOW I cannot do visibility management with it (have 'Array' mean one thing in one level of abstraction (=package) and another thing in another level of abstraction in the same session). Name lookup (the namespace) is applied at the time a method is compiled and is independent of the runtime session. To see this working in Pharo check out http://programminggems.wordpress.com/2010/09/23/gsoc-namespace-project/. > So it feels like there is one namespace, not multiple. (and it does not do selector namespaces if memory serves). I’m not sure what you mean by selector namespaces, but a few years ago (as part of supporting Ruby) GemStone added the ability to have multiple method dictionaries for each class and (as part of supporting Seaside) added the ability to insert session-specific method dictionaries. -James

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

+1 > Hi, > > The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org webpage. > > This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: > http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo > > You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. > > Cheers, > Doru And this is not like we did not announce it since 2008 :) Stef

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Android VM Status

by Stéphane Ducasse

Well done JB! This is great to see this fork realigned and to identify the changes. Thanks for your constant push. Stef On 31 Jul 2014, at 16:33, Jean Baptiste Arnaud <jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I made some advance on Android StackVM (using the standard unix sources). > > :-) > > Last Unix Stack VM with last 40Pharo image (a little bit modified cause au no-NativeBoost and some constraint from the Android Sandboxing ). > Content: > - Somes lines of code change in SqUnixMain.c (using if define android, but not a lot, just for allow to load external lib :-). > - 1 communication with java / C files, (will be split in two or three file one for printing debugging, one or two for core). > - 1 external graphical plugins. vm-display-android, really short but for android, because the rendering is done by Android. > > > All these plugins are includes (not deeply tested yet, but most of them should work): > AndroidPlugin (for now I just allow to do debug printing from the image in the logCat), BitBltPlugin, B2DPlugin, BMPReadWriterPlugin, CroquetPlugin, DSAPrims, FFTPlugin, FileCopyPlugin, FilePlugin, FloatArrayPlugin, FloatMathPlugin, JoystickTabletPlugin, JPEGReaderPlugin, LargeIntegers,Matrix2x3Plugin, RePlugin, SecurityPlugin, JPEGReadWriter2Plugin, SocketPlugin, MiscPrimitivePlugin, ZipPlugin. > > And a lot of debugging. :-). > > Next step: > - fixing all the Event. > - Do a real Configuration generator to be able to generate from Jenkins using the NDK. > - Then merge in the main PharoVM Git :-). > - Do a configuration to allow older pharo image to run on it. Maybe older but I not convince yet. > - And obviously a job for allow anybody to create a android package with it's own image :-) > > See you soon :-) > > <IMG_3934.jpeg> > > Best Regards > Dr Arnaud > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Android VM Status

by jannik laval

Really nice ! Where can I download it ? Jannik 2014-07-31 17:03 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>: > This is a fantastic news JB. Keep going!!! > > Alexandre > > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Jean Baptiste Arnaud < > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > I made some advance on Android StackVM (using the standard unix sources). > > > > :-) > > > > Last Unix Stack VM with last 40Pharo image (a little bit modified cause > au no-NativeBoost and some constraint from the Android Sandboxing ). > > Content: > > - Somes lines of code change in SqUnixMain.c (using if define android, > but not a lot, just for allow to load external lib :-). > > - 1 communication with java / C files, (will be split in two or three > file one for printing debugging, one or two for core). > > - 1 external graphical plugins. vm-display-android, really short but for > android, because the rendering is done by Android. > > > > > > All these plugins are includes (not deeply tested yet, but most of them > should work): > > AndroidPlugin (for now I just allow to do debug printing from the image > in the logCat), BitBltPlugin, B2DPlugin, BMPReadWriterPlugin, > CroquetPlugin, DSAPrims, FFTPlugin, FileCopyPlugin, FilePlugin, > FloatArrayPlugin, FloatMathPlugin, JoystickTabletPlugin, JPEGReaderPlugin, > LargeIntegers,Matrix2x3Plugin, RePlugin, SecurityPlugin, > JPEGReadWriter2Plugin, SocketPlugin, MiscPrimitivePlugin, ZipPlugin. > > > > And a lot of debugging. :-). > > > > Next step: > > - fixing all the Event. > > - Do a real Configuration generator to be able to generate from Jenkins > using the NDK. > > - Then merge in the main PharoVM Git :-). > > - Do a configuration to allow older pharo image to run on it. Maybe > older but I not convince yet. > > - And obviously a job for allow anybody to create a android package with > it's own image :-) > > > > See you soon :-) > > > > <IMG_3934.jpeg> > > > > Best Regards > > Dr Arnaud > > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > -- ~~Jannik Laval~~ École des Mines de Douai Enseignant-chercheur http://www.jannik-laval.eu http://www.phratch.com http://car.mines-douai.fr/

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Reinout Heeck

On 7/31/2014 3:56 PM, James Foster wrote: > On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:26 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > >> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). > In what way does GemStone/S not have “a decent namespace implementation”? It's been ages since I worked with Gemstone, so the following may be way off. What I recall is that Gemstone allows per-session bindings for global names but only 'once' for all the code, IOW I cannot do visibility management with it (have 'Array' mean one thing in one level of abstraction (=package) and another thing in another level of abstraction in the same session). So it feels like there is one namespace, not multiple. (and it does not do selector namespaces if memory serves). > >> Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after browser framework > Have you seen TODE (https://code.google.com/p/tode/ and https://github.com/dalehenrich/tode)? No, so I just watched the video and it made me cringe: here we have one of the very early Smalltalk talents *still* busy with implementing the browser, still concerning himself with combating window clutter, still biding his time with extracting code from the UI to make tool interaction and the MOP accessible to ad-hock scripting. It is a poignant example of what I meant. Compare his browser demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4LcZ4_1Yic) that shows us how to interact with code with less mouse clicks with Bret Victors browser demo (http://vimeo.com/36579366) that shows tools to discover new ideas. R -

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Richard Sargent

In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise". "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." My son is not me. He is inspired by me. Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me. He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me? He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing? I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be. Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family. Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be. ----------------- Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)? -------- Original message -------- From: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00) To: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> Cc: ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>,pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr,pharo-business@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Dear Stef and Doru, what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. Cheers Helge Von: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers, I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: Pharo is NOT Smalltalk All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Cheers Helge _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- http://www.tudorgirba.com/ "Every thing has its own flow"

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Reinout Heeck

On 7/31/2014 5:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >> Sorry but this is totally wrong. You should not judge a community based on the existence or not of a namespace :)> >> Not on its own no, but as part of an (incomplete) list of symptoms? <smiley too> R -

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Helge Nowak

Dear Stef and Doru, what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. Cheers Helge Von: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers, > >I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth > > >I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > >Cheers >Helge > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- http://www.tudorgirba.com/ "Every thing has its own flow"

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Tudor Girba

Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live > Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we > want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to > move towards the future”. This implies three things: > > 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that > gave them birth > > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo > community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > > Cheers > Helge > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

> > > The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. > For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). The single survivor seems to be NewSpeak which clearly chose to 'divorce' itself from Smalltalk 'proper'. > > I recall Pharo was created because Squeak did not cater to the professional market and Pharo would conquer the FLOSS portion of that niche. Seeing that Pharo did not get host window support, nor decent namespaces it seems fair to say that the community did not get its act together -- and if we stretch it we might say that the community held Pharo back. Sorry but this is totally wrong. You should not judge a community based on the existence or not of a namespace :)> > > What I see in the Smalltalk community is a giant circle-jerk (direct object manipulationz! refactoringz! TDDz! xUnitz! we are greatz!) with people wallowing in past greatness. > > The reality (a 'correct' observation as per the above?) is that people are experimenting with new(ish) software development methodologies in *other* environments nowadays. > The example-du-jour is of course Bret Victor who proposes an IDE where we can flatten abstractions (like time) into 2d so our brains can readily grasp and predict consequences of code alterations. Seeing that Apple xCode IDE adopts this paradigm (with Swift) before the Smalltalk IDE did is telling. > > Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after browser framework and -oh yeah- let's reify packages as objects and we still need a JIT, I observe a lot of ant-like activity at ground level and very little 'giants' activity at the 'how to encode my abstractions' level. (Another example: there still is no accepted paradigm in the Smalltalk community that instructs us how to document implementation requirements and decisions -- go figure). > So the programmer's discourse with the Smalltalk machine has not changed many times in the past, perhaps just once during the introduction of refactorings and TDD at roughly the same time. > > > What the Smalltalk community seems to miss is that 'Smalltalk 2.0 is dead, long live Smalltalk 3.0' feeling. > > Perhaps it behooves ESUG to create a session where the community *finally* buries Smalltalk 1.0 and perhaps also pick the date where we sunset Smalltalk 2.0. > > > > > Go Doru, > Pharo desperately wants to escape Smalltalk 1.0 but the community won't let you. > > > > > Reinout > - > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014