October 2017 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

[PHD] From Relational to NoSQL databases

by Stéphane Ducasse

>From Relational to NoSQL databases We are looking to fill a PhD position. The candidate should: - hold a Master degree in Computer Science - be fluent in English (French is an advantage but not required) - have good programming skills Experience with DSLs, Models, code analysis, relational and NoSQL databases... is a plus. The goal of this work is to provide methods and tools to translate relational databases into NoSQL ones. This migration implies more than just a language translation, since the used philosophy and paradigm are different. Due to the very large amount of data that some companies have to deal with, traditional relational database, generally conceived to work on unique computers have met scalability issues. NoSQL databases have emerged to work on distributed hardware architecture and deal with very large amount of data. Strong relational structure disappears to let place to very quick access. Data are no more gathered in tables that are joined in query, but in aggregates that correspond to different ways the data are frequently used or simply without schema and the work is let to the applications. The plan is to: - Analyse the current state of tools and languages in the context of NoSQL database management systems. - Provide mechanism / tools to understand the current relational schema of the database. - Provide mechanism / tools to understand how data are used by the applications because certain NoSQL database structure depends on the way data are used. - Realize prototypes potentially with Moose (http://www.moosetechnology.com) in Pharo (http://www.pharo.org) and in Softeam modelling platform (in Java) Results will be submitted to be publish in international conferences and journals. The work is a collaboration between Inria Lille (RMOD) and Softeam (Paris). Duration: 3 years Salary: Minimal salary (should be discussed with the company) will 23 484€ brut per year (corresponding to 1507€ net per month) Employer: Softeam (the PhD will be in the context of a CIFRE PhD – i.e., with constant contact with the company and the RMOD research team) More information: contact anne.etien(a)inria.fr or stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr Softeam Softeam group is one of the 50 biggest Digital Services Company, realising a turnover of around 80 Millions of euros. It counts over 850 consultants in France and abroad. Softeam, through its R&D department, is actively involved in research and development activities in the field of the software and system engineering and in particular in the Model Driven Engineering (MDE). Softeam R&D department actively participates in various national and European collaborative research projects as well as Model Driven Architecture (MDA), Software Process Engineering Metamodel (SPEM), UML2, QVT, BPMN2 et UPMS (SOAPro). Inria Lille Inria is a research institute dedicated to promoting ‘scientific excellence in the service of technology transfer and society as a whole’. Inria employs a staff of 2700, drawn from the world’s most prestigious universities, to address the latest challenges in computer science and mathematics. The Institute operates eight Research Centres throughout France. The Inria Lille - Nord Europe Research Centre was founded in 2008 and employs a staff of 360, including 300 scientists working in sixteen research teams. Recognised for its outstanding contribution the socio-economic development of the Nord - Pas-de-Calais Region, the Inria Lille - Nord Europe Research Centre undertakes research in the field of computer science in collaboration with a range of academic, institutional and industrial partners. The strategy of the Centre is to develop an internationally renowned centre of excellence with a significant impact on the City of Lille and its surrounding area. It works to achieve this by pursuing a range of ambitious research projects in such fields of computer science as the intelligence of data and adaptive software systems. Building on the synergies between research and industry, Inria is a major contributor to skills and technology transfer in the field of computer science. https://www.inria.fr/centre/lille RMoD The goal of RMoD is to support remodularization and development of modular object-oriented applications. We tackle this objective from two complementary perspectives: reengineering, and constructs for dynamic languages. In the context of remodularization, we we propose new analyses to understand and restructure large applications (specialized metrics, adapted visualizations). Works are validated using Moose, a metaplatform to analyse large applications. http://rmod.inria.fr -------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Oct. 16, 2017

Looking for Spanish speakers to help translate the Pharo mooc subtitles

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi guys Please forward this email to appropriate people :) Ricardo Pacheco started to translate to Spanish the session 1,2,3,4 of week 1 of the Pharo mooc. The pharo mooc is starting October 16th. Now if each of the spanish smalltalkers I know would translate one or two files I’m sure that the mooc would be translated in a week. The subs are available here. https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoMooc/tree/master/Subtitles <https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoMooc/tree/master/Subtitles> Stef -------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Oct. 15, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] Esug-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 7

by kai.fuhrmann＠posteo.de

Nice! x Designing a small AI for a game Am 11.10.2017 18:00 schrieb esug-list-request(a)lists.esug.org: > Send Esug-list mailing list submissions to > esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > esug-list-request(a)lists.esug.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > esug-list-owner(a)lists.esug.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Esug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. TechTalk on AI & NeuralNetworks (Alexandre Bergel) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:13:03 -0300 > From: Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > To: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > Subject: [Esug-list] TechTalk on AI & NeuralNetworks > Message-ID: <A7B9BA6D-8044-4738-BA14-F08D195A33C1(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Dear All, > > A TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence is soon approaching. It is on > Tuesday 17Oct, 2017 (5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00)) > I need your input. Which example to you want me to use? > - Data manipulation, or > - Designing a small AI for a game > > Please answer: > https://twitter.com/alexbergel/status/918084438197784578 > > > Some info about the event: > https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 > https://www.facebook.com/events/133683180530368 > > Again, thanks Marcus Denker and the RMoD crew for their help in > organizing it. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Esug-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 7 > ****************************************

Oct. 12, 2017

TechTalk on AI & NeuralNetworks

by Alexandre Bergel

Dear All, A TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence is soon approaching. It is on Tuesday 17Oct, 2017 (5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00)) I need your input. Which example to you want me to use? - Data manipulation, or - Designing a small AI for a game Please answer: https://twitter.com/alexbergel/status/918084438197784578 Some info about the event: https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 https://www.facebook.com/events/133683180530368 Again, thanks Marcus Denker and the RMoD crew for their help in organizing it. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Hi there, I must say I like the way this discussion is evolving. Just too bad it is spread over multiple groups (but that is my fault). So it seems people prefer to keep discussing on mailing lists rather than spend time meeting in person or virtually. Let me start with a topic that I am still not sure I understand: For quite a while, we used a patched version of #commitUntOfWorkAndContinue in order to be able to use objects once loaded in a session after a commit or rollback without having to re-read them. But this seemed to bloat images, because caches were growing and growing. And we ran into the old problem of "why can't user B see user's A's changes?". But since our object graphs can get big, we stuck with commitUnitOfWorkAndContinue and rollbackUnitOfWorkAndContinue. Until users complained about or slow server. So I made this experiment: obj := session read: MyClass where: [:ea| ea id = 1000]. obj someVariable: 50. session commitUnitOfWork; beginUnitOfWork. session refresh: obj. obj someVariable: 30. session commitUnitOfWork. obj inspect. I had expected this to fail miserably. I wasn't sure about whether it would fail at the first #refresh: or if the following commit would either fail or do an INSERT instead of an UPDATE. Surprisingly, the snippet worked. Not only did both commits correctly issue UPDATEs, the values in the object were correct at all times. My initial theory about this would be that after a commitUnitOfWork, the object in the image would be "detached" from the DB. But it isn't. I still can hardly believe it and would like to know if that is by design or accident. The refresh: is not necessary for the followng commint to understand it needs to Update, it is more to reflect changes that have been made in the DB since we read the object from the DB. Still this feels a bit strange and I wonder if we are living on a coincidence here or if this is intended behavior. Any thoughts? Joachim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Oct. 10, 2017

ESUG 17: First Videos online

by Marcus Denker

Hello, There is now a playlist with the videos of day1: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ5nSnWzQXi_THfKwhzxFwbXy00YTi0uv <https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ5nSnWzQXi_THfKwhzxFwbXy00YTi0uv> More to come! Marcus

Oct. 5, 2017

Lost Logitech R700 at ESUG Maribor

by Marcus Denker

Hello, a Logictech Presenter got missing at ESUG17: Logitech R700 https://www.mimovrste.com/kazalniki/logitech-usb-kazalnik-r700-professional… If someone knows where it ended up, please send me a mail. Marcus

Oct. 3, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by Niall Ross

Dear Joachim, I'm interested. It would be good to pull together the existing documentation, address gaps (and areas where what we have is not clear), and ensure people know of fixes and patterns - I have had to solve issues with the polymorphic joins and embedded objects you mention, with conditionals, etc. An application-driven approach is a good idea: specific how-to queries arising from specific needs. For myself, I might find a more northerly location - e.g. Belgium - a tad easier, but you could doubtless say the same in reverse (and who knows which location will have easiest/cheapest flights, whatever.). A Skype call - even a Skype call for some, while other attenders are meeting face to face - is doable, and I'd certainly attend that way if in no other. As Tom notes in his discussion of Phillippe Marschall's points, either you let Glorp manage the caches and accept some memory load, or you re-read, or you tell Glorp to trust your in-image bridging between units of work - which is a possible pattern, but of course loaded with danger if you could be wrong. Studying patterns for managing this could be interesting (being aware, of course, that some of them come with historical baggage). Meanwhile, I will remark that. while I quite see what you mean about writing huge messages to newsgroups, I do not mind personally receiving _long_ emails on Glorp specifics and, on the timescale that other tasks and deadlines allow, will read them with interest. Yours faithfully Niall Ross jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de wrote: > Hi there, > > > since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as > I suggested, I try something new now ;-) > > Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is > good introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it > comes to real world use, there are many questions to be answered like > > * how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that > stuff, especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside > based web app > * how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, > embedded objects etc. > * what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been > working for hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find > out if Glorp or your use of it is the problem? What can you do then? > * Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems > > None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible > answers to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a > lot of time. It can even be a risk to your business. > > There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and > sometimes it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. > Explaining the whole thing sometimes would make for loooong messages > that probably nobody ever reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't > brilliant. > > So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use > Glorp (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in > discussing stuff and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp > users group. > > The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and > carry your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern > France, Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, > please let me know and I am more than interested in setting something up. > > The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe > even on a regular basis. > > Please let me know if you'd be interested. > > > Joachim > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de >Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de >D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com >Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Oct. 2, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by Tom Robinson

Hi Phillip, On 10/1/2017 1:40 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: > Hi > > Let me start by mentioning that I don't believe any of these issues > are Seaside specific. IMO these issues apply to any web framework > using GLORP and even any web framework using an ORM in general. So it > could be beneficial to investigate how other Smalltalk web frameworks > (AIDA, ApeX, Iliad, ...) or even other languages solve this issue > (JSF, Spring Web MVC, JPA/Hibernate). > > What is most concerning to me is how every object ever loaded with > GLOP is tracked in the cache of the GLOP session. IMO this is wrong as > most objects are read-only and never edited. These objects should not > be tracked. This leads to a lot of unnecessary memory overhead. Only > the objects that are actually edited should be tracked. > I think of it this way, when a table or list of objects is rendered > none the displayed objects should be tracked. Only when an edit link > or button is clicked and an edit form is rendered then the edited > object needs to be tracked and optimistically locked. If we track > every object ever loaded then this simply leads to unbound memory > usage. If caching has to happen for correctness then the cache should > be flushed at the end of a request. As an object-relational mapping framework, Glorp has no way to know which retrieved objects are going to be modified. If you don't cache objects on retrieval, you have to go back to the database again to see what's changed before doing an update. Also, if the application has a simple UI with lots of objects which are not modified, but are used continually, it may make sense to keep them around. In any case, retrieving objects that are read-only in one session and potentially editable objects in another session and then flushing caches at appropriate times might be appropriate. > > Digging a bit into the GLROP documentation I don't think a unit of > work should be active during the render phase. As far as I understand > this should prevent any of the loaded objects from being tracked by > being added to the cache. Only when an object is being edited should > it be registered manually for tracking by the GLOP session. > However during the callback phase a unit of work should be active. > This should be done automatically by a Seaside-GLORP extension. On a > successful or cancelled edit the edited object should be removed from > the cache again and the callback should be invalidated (ideally a one > time callback is used). > > It would be good to hear from somebody with GLROP experience whether > what I just wrote made any sense at all or is utter nonsense. Philippe, I think your "it should be this way" could be right for some applications, but wrong for others. A solution for an application that serves one request at a time per image with multiple images running in parallel might do things the way you suggest. Another application might want to cache objects in the image for use by multiple simultaneous requests. If you register retrieved objects only when the edit button is clicked, you need an extra round trip to the database. It might depend on whether your limited resource is the database server, application server memory, application server cpu or something else. Cincom uses Glorp to read and write source code definitions in StORE. When reading, Store database objects are retrieved and then converted to active Smalltalk code. When writing a package or bundle, the Store database objects have to be synched to the database before writing a new version so that unchanged definitions are not written as duplicates in the database. This is, in essence, what you're suggesting. It's necessary because the objects in the image live long beyond the duration of a database connection, but it has a cost. Hope you find this helpful... > > I would also be open to attending some sort of meetup in northern > Switzerland/southern Germany to discuss this in person. > > Cheers > Philippe > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 8:56 AM, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de > <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> >> since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as I >> suggested, I try something new now ;-) >> >> Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is good >> introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it comes to real >> world use, there are many questions to be answered like >> >> how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that stuff, >> especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside based web app >> how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, embedded objects >> etc. >> what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been working for >> hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out if Glorp or your use >> of it is the problem? What can you do then? >> Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems >> >> None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible answers >> to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a lot of time. It >> can even be a risk to your business. >> >> There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and sometimes >> it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. Explaining the whole >> thing sometimes would make for loooong messages that probably nobody ever >> reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't brilliant. >> >> So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use Glorp >> (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in discussing stuff >> and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp users group. >> >> The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and carry >> your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern France, >> Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, please let me >> know and I am more than interested in setting something up. >> >> The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe even >> on a regular basis. >> >> Please let me know if you'd be interested. >> >> >> Joachim >> >> -- >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de >> Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de >> D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com >> Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> seaside mailing list >> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >> > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 2, 2017

Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody?

by Steven Kelly

What about caching reads for performance reasons? That seems useful in GLORP for Store, or am I just imagining it? I have images that have lived for years and haven't slowed down or become bloated, so GLORP caches are clearing correctly when the image is saved, restarts and reconnects to Store. I have a little home grown ORM and web renderer that does no caching, and that too works fine: in simple old-fashioned web rendering, you rarely would want to cache longer than it takes to render one page. Steve ________________________________ From: Philippe Marschall<mailto:philippe.marschall@gmail.com> Sent: ‎01/‎10/‎2017 22:41 To: Seaside - general discussion<mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org> Cc: esug-list(a)lists.esug.org<mailto:esug-list@lists.esug.org>; glorp-group<mailto:glorp-group@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [Esug-list] [Seaside] Glorp/Seaside experience exchange on- or offline, anybody? Hi Let me start by mentioning that I don't believe any of these issues are Seaside specific. IMO these issues apply to any web framework using GLORP and even any web framework using an ORM in general. So it could be beneficial to investigate how other Smalltalk web frameworks (AIDA, ApeX, Iliad, ...) or even other languages solve this issue (JSF, Spring Web MVC, JPA/Hibernate). What is most concerning to me is how every object ever loaded with GLOP is tracked in the cache of the GLOP session. IMO this is wrong as most objects are read-only and never edited. These objects should not be tracked. This leads to a lot of unnecessary memory overhead. Only the objects that are actually edited should be tracked. I think of it this way, when a table or list of objects is rendered none the displayed objects should be tracked. Only when an edit link or button is clicked and an edit form is rendered then the edited object needs to be tracked and optimistically locked. If we track every object ever loaded then this simply leads to unbound memory usage. If caching has to happen for correctness then the cache should be flushed at the end of a request. Digging a bit into the GLROP documentation I don't think a unit of work should be active during the render phase. As far as I understand this should prevent any of the loaded objects from being tracked by being added to the cache. Only when an object is being edited should it be registered manually for tracking by the GLOP session. However during the callback phase a unit of work should be active. This should be done automatically by a Seaside-GLORP extension. On a successful or cancelled edit the edited object should be removed from the cache again and the callback should be invalidated (ideally a one time callback is used). It would be good to hear from somebody with GLROP experience whether what I just wrote made any sense at all or is utter nonsense. I would also be open to attending some sort of meetup in northern Switzerland/southern Germany to discuss this in person. Cheers Philippe On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 8:56 AM, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > Hi there, > > > since nobody at ESUG seemed to be interested in a Glorp/Seaside BOF as I > suggested, I try something new now ;-) > > Glorp is a great tool for OR mapping and works very well. There is good > introductory material, even if it is hard to find. But when it comes to real > world use, there are many questions to be answered like > > how to handle transactions, mementos, units of work and that stuff, > especially in a multi-user environment like a Seaside based web app > how to map more complicated things, like polymorphic joins, embedded objects > etc. > what if an image slows down gradually when a user has been working for > hours, almsot coming to a standstill. How to find out if Glorp or your use > of it is the problem? What can you do then? > Is my use of transactions correct or will I face problems > > None of these are easy questions and maybe there are many possible answers > to them, But finding them on your own can be hard and take a lot of time. It > can even be a risk to your business. > > There is the Glorp group, but it's not actually in heavy use and sometimes > it is hard to write down a problem in a few lines. Explaining the whole > thing sometimes would make for loooong messages that probably nobody ever > reads, esp. if the poster's english isn't brilliant. > > So what I'm looking for is ways to find and meet people who also use Glorp > (or any other ORM in Smalltalk) and would be interested in discussing stuff > and maybe answer questions. Something like a Glorp users group. > > The best thing to exchange ideas is probably to meet face to face and carry > your laptop with you. So if anybody in Southern Germany, Eastern France, > Northern Switzerland would be interested in such a meeting, please let me > know and I am more than interested in setting something up. > > The second best is probably some sort of online conference call. Maybe even > on a regular basis. > > Please let me know if you'd be interested. > > > Joachim > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 1, 2017