July 2014 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Android VM Status

by Jean Baptiste Arnaud

Couple a things still to do: If you want jannik when I will have my first Beta, I give a version, but for a jenkins I will need some work on the configuration generator. On 31 Jul 2014, at 21:09, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Well done JB! > This is great to see this fork realigned and to identify the changes. > Thanks for your constant push. > > Stef > > On 31 Jul 2014, at 16:33, Jean Baptiste Arnaud <jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> I made some advance on Android StackVM (using the standard unix sources). >> >> :-) >> >> Last Unix Stack VM with last 40Pharo image (a little bit modified cause au no-NativeBoost and some constraint from the Android Sandboxing ). >> Content: >> - Somes lines of code change in SqUnixMain.c (using if define android, but not a lot, just for allow to load external lib :-). >> - 1 communication with java / C files, (will be split in two or three file one for printing debugging, one or two for core). >> - 1 external graphical plugins. vm-display-android, really short but for android, because the rendering is done by Android. >> >> >> All these plugins are includes (not deeply tested yet, but most of them should work): >> AndroidPlugin (for now I just allow to do debug printing from the image in the logCat), BitBltPlugin, B2DPlugin, BMPReadWriterPlugin, CroquetPlugin, DSAPrims, FFTPlugin, FileCopyPlugin, FilePlugin, FloatArrayPlugin, FloatMathPlugin, JoystickTabletPlugin, JPEGReaderPlugin, LargeIntegers,Matrix2x3Plugin, RePlugin, SecurityPlugin, JPEGReadWriter2Plugin, SocketPlugin, MiscPrimitivePlugin, ZipPlugin. >> >> And a lot of debugging. :-). >> >> Next step: >> - fixing all the Event. >> - Do a real Configuration generator to be able to generate from Jenkins using the NDK. >> - Then merge in the main PharoVM Git :-). >> - Do a configuration to allow older pharo image to run on it. Maybe older but I not convince yet. >> - And obviously a job for allow anybody to create a android package with it's own image :-) >> >> See you soon :-) >> >> <IMG_3934.jpeg> >> >> Best Regards >> Dr Arnaud >> jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org Best Regards Dr Arnaud jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Dale Henrichs

Reinout, I have a feeling that if we had a chance to talk that we would be in "screaming agreement." I have spent a large portion of the last 5 years helping to build new infrastructure for Smalltalk. Metacello and Filetree have made it possible for Smalltalkers to start using the more modern SCMs like git and to benefit from collaborative tools like GitHub and I think this is a _good_ thing. tODE is my take on a Smalltalk IDE built to support git/github-based development and is just another necessary (no IDE for GemStone) step along the way. I'd like to think that my work contributes to the overall effort in building "Smalltalk3.0." And I'm sorry I made you cringe:) Dale On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > On 7/31/2014 3:56 PM, James Foster wrote: > >> On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:26 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: >> >> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >>> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace >>> implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). >>> >> In what way does GemStone/S not have “a decent namespace implementation”? >> > > It's been ages since I worked with Gemstone, so the following may be way > off. > What I recall is that Gemstone allows per-session bindings for global > names but only 'once' for all the code, IOW I cannot do visibility > management with it (have 'Array' mean one thing in one level of abstraction > (=package) and another thing in another level of abstraction in the same > session). > So it feels like there is one namespace, not multiple. (and it does not do > selector namespaces if memory serves). > > > >> Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after >>> browser framework >>> >> Have you seen TODE (https://code.google.com/p/tode/ and >> https://github.com/dalehenrich/tode)? >> > > No, so I just watched the video and it made me cringe: here we have one of > the very early Smalltalk talents *still* busy with implementing the > browser, still concerning himself with combating window clutter, still > biding his time with extracting code from the UI to make tool interaction > and the MOP accessible to ad-hock scripting. > > It is a poignant example of what I meant. > > Compare his browser demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4LcZ4_1Yic) > that shows us how to interact with code with less mouse clicks with Bret > Victors browser demo (http://vimeo.com/36579366) that shows tools to > discover new ideas. > > > > R > > - > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Esteban Lorenzano

On 31 Jul 2014, at 21:20, Stéphane Ducasse <Stephane.Ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >>>> >>>> Sorry but this is totally wrong. You should not judge a community based on the existence or not of a namespace :)> >>>> >> >> Not on its own no, but as part of an (incomplete) list of symptoms? <smiley too> meh ObjC also does not have namespaces and no one has ever claimed that is not professional. honestly, if that’s your complain, I can just feel confident in the path we are following. Esteban > > Dont worry :) > You only see in Pharo the top of the iceberg. We have first class variables, brand new compiler. > We are prototyping on package local extensions and many more but since we want that our users continue to make > business with Pharo we go step by step. Wise isn’t :) > >> >> >> R >> - >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

***THANKS*** for your great words. Indeed I have three boys and I expect them to be smarter and better than me (without having to kill me :)). some people forget that around the corner we have Javascript, Lua, Python, ruby and scala, dart…..and many others and such battles are far more important. Stef On 31 Jul 2014, at 18:10, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: > In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise". > > > "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." > > My son is not me. He is inspired by me. > > Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me. > > He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me? > > He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing? > > > I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be. > > > Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family. > > > Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be. > > ----------------- > Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)? > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Helge Nowak > Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00) > To: Tudor Girba > Cc: ESUG ,pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr,pharo-business@lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" > > Dear Stef and Doru, > > what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): > > Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." > > Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) > > I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. > > Cheers > Helge > > Von: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> > CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" > > Hi, > > The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. > > This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: > http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo > > You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > > Cheers > Helge > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > -- > http://www.tudorgirba.com/ > > "Every thing has its own flow" > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

>>> >>> Sorry but this is totally wrong. You should not judge a community based on the existence or not of a namespace :)> >>> > > Not on its own no, but as part of an (incomplete) list of symptoms? <smiley too> Dont worry :) You only see in Pharo the top of the iceberg. We have first class variables, brand new compiler. We are prototyping on package local extensions and many more but since we want that our users continue to make business with Pharo we go step by step. Wise isn’t :) > > > R > - > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

The problem with Smalltalk: no decent namespace implementation?

by James Foster

On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:17 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: On 7/31/2014 3:56 PM, James Foster wrote: >> On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:26 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: >> >>> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >>> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). >> In what way does GemStone/S not have “a decent namespace implementation”? > > It's been ages since I worked with Gemstone, so the following may be way off. > What I recall is that Gemstone allows per-session bindings for global names but only 'once' for all the code, IOW I cannot do visibility management with it (have 'Array' mean one thing in one level of abstraction (=package) and another thing in another level of abstraction in the same session). Name lookup (the namespace) is applied at the time a method is compiled and is independent of the runtime session. To see this working in Pharo check out http://programminggems.wordpress.com/2010/09/23/gsoc-namespace-project/. > So it feels like there is one namespace, not multiple. (and it does not do selector namespaces if memory serves). I’m not sure what you mean by selector namespaces, but a few years ago (as part of supporting Ruby) GemStone added the ability to have multiple method dictionaries for each class and (as part of supporting Seaside) added the ability to insert session-specific method dictionaries. -James

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

+1 > Hi, > > The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org webpage. > > This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: > http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo > > You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. > > Cheers, > Doru And this is not like we did not announce it since 2008 :) Stef

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Android VM Status

by Stéphane Ducasse

Well done JB! This is great to see this fork realigned and to identify the changes. Thanks for your constant push. Stef On 31 Jul 2014, at 16:33, Jean Baptiste Arnaud <jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I made some advance on Android StackVM (using the standard unix sources). > > :-) > > Last Unix Stack VM with last 40Pharo image (a little bit modified cause au no-NativeBoost and some constraint from the Android Sandboxing ). > Content: > - Somes lines of code change in SqUnixMain.c (using if define android, but not a lot, just for allow to load external lib :-). > - 1 communication with java / C files, (will be split in two or three file one for printing debugging, one or two for core). > - 1 external graphical plugins. vm-display-android, really short but for android, because the rendering is done by Android. > > > All these plugins are includes (not deeply tested yet, but most of them should work): > AndroidPlugin (for now I just allow to do debug printing from the image in the logCat), BitBltPlugin, B2DPlugin, BMPReadWriterPlugin, CroquetPlugin, DSAPrims, FFTPlugin, FileCopyPlugin, FilePlugin, FloatArrayPlugin, FloatMathPlugin, JoystickTabletPlugin, JPEGReaderPlugin, LargeIntegers,Matrix2x3Plugin, RePlugin, SecurityPlugin, JPEGReadWriter2Plugin, SocketPlugin, MiscPrimitivePlugin, ZipPlugin. > > And a lot of debugging. :-). > > Next step: > - fixing all the Event. > - Do a real Configuration generator to be able to generate from Jenkins using the NDK. > - Then merge in the main PharoVM Git :-). > - Do a configuration to allow older pharo image to run on it. Maybe older but I not convince yet. > - And obviously a job for allow anybody to create a android package with it's own image :-) > > See you soon :-) > > <IMG_3934.jpeg> > > Best Regards > Dr Arnaud > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Android VM Status

by jannik laval

Really nice ! Where can I download it ? Jannik 2014-07-31 17:03 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>: > This is a fantastic news JB. Keep going!!! > > Alexandre > > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Jean Baptiste Arnaud < > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > I made some advance on Android StackVM (using the standard unix sources). > > > > :-) > > > > Last Unix Stack VM with last 40Pharo image (a little bit modified cause > au no-NativeBoost and some constraint from the Android Sandboxing ). > > Content: > > - Somes lines of code change in SqUnixMain.c (using if define android, > but not a lot, just for allow to load external lib :-). > > - 1 communication with java / C files, (will be split in two or three > file one for printing debugging, one or two for core). > > - 1 external graphical plugins. vm-display-android, really short but for > android, because the rendering is done by Android. > > > > > > All these plugins are includes (not deeply tested yet, but most of them > should work): > > AndroidPlugin (for now I just allow to do debug printing from the image > in the logCat), BitBltPlugin, B2DPlugin, BMPReadWriterPlugin, > CroquetPlugin, DSAPrims, FFTPlugin, FileCopyPlugin, FilePlugin, > FloatArrayPlugin, FloatMathPlugin, JoystickTabletPlugin, JPEGReaderPlugin, > LargeIntegers,Matrix2x3Plugin, RePlugin, SecurityPlugin, > JPEGReadWriter2Plugin, SocketPlugin, MiscPrimitivePlugin, ZipPlugin. > > > > And a lot of debugging. :-). > > > > Next step: > > - fixing all the Event. > > - Do a real Configuration generator to be able to generate from Jenkins > using the NDK. > > - Then merge in the main PharoVM Git :-). > > - Do a configuration to allow older pharo image to run on it. Maybe > older but I not convince yet. > > - And obviously a job for allow anybody to create a android package with > it's own image :-) > > > > See you soon :-) > > > > <IMG_3934.jpeg> > > > > Best Regards > > Dr Arnaud > > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > -- ~~Jannik Laval~~ École des Mines de Douai Enseignant-chercheur http://www.jannik-laval.eu http://www.phratch.com http://car.mines-douai.fr/

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Reinout Heeck

On 7/31/2014 3:56 PM, James Foster wrote: > On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:26 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > >> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). > In what way does GemStone/S not have “a decent namespace implementation”? It's been ages since I worked with Gemstone, so the following may be way off. What I recall is that Gemstone allows per-session bindings for global names but only 'once' for all the code, IOW I cannot do visibility management with it (have 'Array' mean one thing in one level of abstraction (=package) and another thing in another level of abstraction in the same session). So it feels like there is one namespace, not multiple. (and it does not do selector namespaces if memory serves). > >> Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after browser framework > Have you seen TODE (https://code.google.com/p/tode/ and https://github.com/dalehenrich/tode)? No, so I just watched the video and it made me cringe: here we have one of the very early Smalltalk talents *still* busy with implementing the browser, still concerning himself with combating window clutter, still biding his time with extracting code from the UI to make tool interaction and the MOP accessible to ad-hock scripting. It is a poignant example of what I meant. Compare his browser demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4LcZ4_1Yic) that shows us how to interact with code with less mouse clicks with Bret Victors browser demo (http://vimeo.com/36579366) that shows tools to discover new ideas. R -

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Richard Sargent

In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise". "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." My son is not me. He is inspired by me. Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me. He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me? He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing? I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be. Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family. Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be. ----------------- Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)? -------- Original message -------- From: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00) To: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> Cc: ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>,pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr,pharo-business@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Dear Stef and Doru, what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. Cheers Helge Von: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers, I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: Pharo is NOT Smalltalk All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Cheers Helge _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- http://www.tudorgirba.com/ "Every thing has its own flow"

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Reinout Heeck

On 7/31/2014 5:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >> Sorry but this is totally wrong. You should not judge a community based on the existence or not of a namespace :)> >> Not on its own no, but as part of an (incomplete) list of symptoms? <smiley too> R -

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Helge Nowak

Dear Stef and Doru, what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. Cheers Helge Von: Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers, > >I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth > > >I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > >Cheers >Helge > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- http://www.tudorgirba.com/ "Every thing has its own flow"

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Tudor Girba

Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live > Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we > want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to > move towards the future”. This implies three things: > > 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that > gave them birth > > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo > community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > > Cheers > Helge > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

> > > The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. > For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). The single survivor seems to be NewSpeak which clearly chose to 'divorce' itself from Smalltalk 'proper'. > > I recall Pharo was created because Squeak did not cater to the professional market and Pharo would conquer the FLOSS portion of that niche. Seeing that Pharo did not get host window support, nor decent namespaces it seems fair to say that the community did not get its act together -- and if we stretch it we might say that the community held Pharo back. Sorry but this is totally wrong. You should not judge a community based on the existence or not of a namespace :)> > > What I see in the Smalltalk community is a giant circle-jerk (direct object manipulationz! refactoringz! TDDz! xUnitz! we are greatz!) with people wallowing in past greatness. > > The reality (a 'correct' observation as per the above?) is that people are experimenting with new(ish) software development methodologies in *other* environments nowadays. > The example-du-jour is of course Bret Victor who proposes an IDE where we can flatten abstractions (like time) into 2d so our brains can readily grasp and predict consequences of code alterations. Seeing that Apple xCode IDE adopts this paradigm (with Swift) before the Smalltalk IDE did is telling. > > Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after browser framework and -oh yeah- let's reify packages as objects and we still need a JIT, I observe a lot of ant-like activity at ground level and very little 'giants' activity at the 'how to encode my abstractions' level. (Another example: there still is no accepted paradigm in the Smalltalk community that instructs us how to document implementation requirements and decisions -- go figure). > So the programmer's discourse with the Smalltalk machine has not changed many times in the past, perhaps just once during the introduction of refactorings and TDD at roughly the same time. > > > What the Smalltalk community seems to miss is that 'Smalltalk 2.0 is dead, long live Smalltalk 3.0' feeling. > > Perhaps it behooves ESUG to create a session where the community *finally* buries Smalltalk 1.0 and perhaps also pick the date where we sunset Smalltalk 2.0. > > > > > Go Doru, > Pharo desperately wants to escape Smalltalk 1.0 but the community won't let you. > > > > > Reinout > - > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Stéphane Ducasse

What are the actions that you make today to offer yourself a future is more interesting. No? I have students and I prefer that they find a job in “Smalltalk” than in Javascript but you can continue to talk about such important question… Sorry I do not have the time. BTW you can have a look at my 2009 Smalltalk presentation because Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk…. > Dear Pharoers, > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > > Cheers > Helge > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Nowak, Helge

Thanks Frank! I think Kent Pitman is spot on! -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Frank Shearar Gesendet: Donnerstag, 31. Juli 2014 15:58 An: ESUG Mailing list Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" This seems like a remarkably appropriate paper to read - http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Lambda.html "Lambda, the Ultimate Political Party" - in which Kent Pitman describes events in the Lisp community that sound an awful lot like the discussions that sometimes take place in the Smalltalk community. Especially around "what is Smalltalk". frank On 31 July 2014 14:49, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > Surely that can be cast in a more positive light, perhaps sharing your > thoughts on how to get to a qualitatively better place. Before we > write more emails, though, please consider the following... > > We experience periodic bursts of unhelpful self inflicted injury. Our > lives and energies would be better spent getting stuff done in an > organized fashion. It is essential to keep conversations open, > professional, and widget focused. However, email's high latency tends > to promote an increasingly defensive posture. So, ideally, those > interested in tackling these challenges would get on the same page in > person. We can start doing that just two weeks from now (*and* over > beer or equivalent). I'm looking forward to it :). > > > On 7/31/14 5:26 , Reinout Heeck wrote: >> >> >>> Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always >>> evolved >>> - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a >>> community in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future >>> silently implies that that community didn't move to the future, i. >>> e. stays as is. I don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. >> >> >> >> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace >> implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). The >> single survivor seems to be NewSpeak which clearly chose to 'divorce' >> itself from Smalltalk 'proper'. >> >> I recall Pharo was created because Squeak did not cater to the >> professional market and Pharo would conquer the FLOSS portion of that >> niche. Seeing that Pharo did not get host window support, nor decent >> namespaces it seems fair to say that the community did not get its >> act together -- and if we stretch it we might say that the community >> held Pharo back. >> >> What I see in the Smalltalk community is a giant circle-jerk (direct >> object manipulationz! refactoringz! TDDz! xUnitz! we are greatz!) >> with people wallowing in past greatness. >> >> The reality (a 'correct' observation as per the above?) is that >> people are experimenting with new(ish) software development >> methodologies in >> *other* environments nowadays. >> The example-du-jour is of course Bret Victor who proposes an IDE >> where we can flatten abstractions (like time) into 2d so our brains >> can readily grasp and predict consequences of code alterations. >> Seeing that Apple xCode IDE adopts this paradigm (with Swift) before >> the Smalltalk IDE did is telling. >> >> Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework >> after browser framework and -oh yeah- let's reify packages as objects >> and we still need a JIT, I observe a lot of ant-like activity at >> ground level and very little 'giants' activity at the 'how to encode my abstractions' >> level. (Another example: there still is no accepted paradigm in the >> Smalltalk community that instructs us how to document implementation >> requirements and decisions -- go figure). >> So the programmer's discourse with the Smalltalk machine has not >> changed many times in the past, perhaps just once during the >> introduction of refactorings and TDD at roughly the same time. >> >> >> What the Smalltalk community seems to miss is that 'Smalltalk 2.0 is >> dead, long live Smalltalk 3.0' feeling. >> >> Perhaps it behooves ESUG to create a session where the community >> *finally* buries Smalltalk 1.0 and perhaps also pick the date where >> we sunset Smalltalk 2.0. >> >> >> >> >> Go Doru, >> Pharo desperately wants to escape Smalltalk 1.0 but the community >> won't let you. >> >> >> >> >> Reinout >> - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Android VM Status

by Jean Baptiste Arnaud

Hi, I made some advance on Android StackVM (using the standard unix sources). :-) Last Unix Stack VM with last 40Pharo image (a little bit modified cause au no-NativeBoost and some constraint from the Android Sandboxing ). Content: - Somes lines of code change in SqUnixMain.c (using if define android, but not a lot, just for allow to load external lib :-). - 1 communication with java / C files, (will be split in two or three file one for printing debugging, one or two for core). - 1 external graphical plugins. vm-display-android, really short but for android, because the rendering is done by Android. All these plugins are includes (not deeply tested yet, but most of them should work): AndroidPlugin (for now I just allow to do debug printing from the image in the logCat), BitBltPlugin, B2DPlugin, BMPReadWriterPlugin, CroquetPlugin, DSAPrims, FFTPlugin, FileCopyPlugin, FilePlugin, FloatArrayPlugin, FloatMathPlugin, JoystickTabletPlugin, JPEGReaderPlugin, LargeIntegers,Matrix2x3Plugin, RePlugin, SecurityPlugin, JPEGReadWriter2Plugin, SocketPlugin, MiscPrimitivePlugin, ZipPlugin. And a lot of debugging. :-). Next step: - fixing all the Event. - Do a real Configuration generator to be able to generate from Jenkins using the NDK. - Then merge in the main PharoVM Git :-). - Do a configuration to allow older pharo image to run on it. Maybe older but I not convince yet. - And obviously a job for allow anybody to create a android package with it's own image :-) See you soon :-) Best Regards Dr Arnaud jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Frank Shearar

This seems like a remarkably appropriate paper to read - http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Lambda.html "Lambda, the Ultimate Political Party" - in which Kent Pitman describes events in the Lisp community that sound an awful lot like the discussions that sometimes take place in the Smalltalk community. Especially around "what is Smalltalk". frank On 31 July 2014 14:49, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > Surely that can be cast in a more positive light, perhaps sharing your > thoughts on how to get to a qualitatively better place. Before we write > more emails, though, please consider the following... > > We experience periodic bursts of unhelpful self inflicted injury. Our lives > and energies would be better spent getting stuff done in an organized > fashion. It is essential to keep conversations open, professional, and > widget focused. However, email's high latency tends to promote an > increasingly defensive posture. So, ideally, those interested in tackling > these challenges would get on the same page in person. We can start doing > that just two weeks from now (*and* over beer or equivalent). I'm looking > forward to it :). > > > On 7/31/14 5:26 , Reinout Heeck wrote: >> >> >>> Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved >>> - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community >>> in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies >>> that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I >>> don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. >> >> >> >> The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. >> For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace >> implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). The >> single survivor seems to be NewSpeak which clearly chose to 'divorce' >> itself from Smalltalk 'proper'. >> >> I recall Pharo was created because Squeak did not cater to the >> professional market and Pharo would conquer the FLOSS portion of that >> niche. Seeing that Pharo did not get host window support, nor decent >> namespaces it seems fair to say that the community did not get its act >> together -- and if we stretch it we might say that the community held >> Pharo back. >> >> What I see in the Smalltalk community is a giant circle-jerk (direct >> object manipulationz! refactoringz! TDDz! xUnitz! we are greatz!) with >> people wallowing in past greatness. >> >> The reality (a 'correct' observation as per the above?) is that people >> are experimenting with new(ish) software development methodologies in >> *other* environments nowadays. >> The example-du-jour is of course Bret Victor who proposes an IDE where >> we can flatten abstractions (like time) into 2d so our brains can >> readily grasp and predict consequences of code alterations. Seeing that >> Apple xCode IDE adopts this paradigm (with Swift) before the Smalltalk >> IDE did is telling. >> >> Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after >> browser framework and -oh yeah- let's reify packages as objects and we >> still need a JIT, I observe a lot of ant-like activity at ground level >> and very little 'giants' activity at the 'how to encode my abstractions' >> level. (Another example: there still is no accepted paradigm in the >> Smalltalk community that instructs us how to document implementation >> requirements and decisions -- go figure). >> So the programmer's discourse with the Smalltalk machine has not changed >> many times in the past, perhaps just once during the introduction of >> refactorings and TDD at roughly the same time. >> >> >> What the Smalltalk community seems to miss is that 'Smalltalk 2.0 is >> dead, long live Smalltalk 3.0' feeling. >> >> Perhaps it behooves ESUG to create a session where the community >> *finally* buries Smalltalk 1.0 and perhaps also pick the date where we >> sunset Smalltalk 2.0. >> >> >> >> >> Go Doru, >> Pharo desperately wants to escape Smalltalk 1.0 but the community >> won't let you. >> >> >> >> >> Reinout >> - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by James Foster

On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:26 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. > For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). In what way does GemStone/S not have “a decent namespace implementation”? > Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after browser framework Have you seen TODE (https://code.google.com/p/tode/ and https://github.com/dalehenrich/tode)?

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Andres Valloud

Surely that can be cast in a more positive light, perhaps sharing your thoughts on how to get to a qualitatively better place. Before we write more emails, though, please consider the following... We experience periodic bursts of unhelpful self inflicted injury. Our lives and energies would be better spent getting stuff done in an organized fashion. It is essential to keep conversations open, professional, and widget focused. However, email's high latency tends to promote an increasingly defensive posture. So, ideally, those interested in tackling these challenges would get on the same page in person. We can start doing that just two weeks from now (*and* over beer or equivalent). I'm looking forward to it :). On 7/31/14 5:26 , Reinout Heeck wrote: > >> Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved >> - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community >> in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies >> that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I >> don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. > > > The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. > For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace > implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). The > single survivor seems to be NewSpeak which clearly chose to 'divorce' > itself from Smalltalk 'proper'. > > I recall Pharo was created because Squeak did not cater to the > professional market and Pharo would conquer the FLOSS portion of that > niche. Seeing that Pharo did not get host window support, nor decent > namespaces it seems fair to say that the community did not get its act > together -- and if we stretch it we might say that the community held > Pharo back. > > What I see in the Smalltalk community is a giant circle-jerk (direct > object manipulationz! refactoringz! TDDz! xUnitz! we are greatz!) with > people wallowing in past greatness. > > The reality (a 'correct' observation as per the above?) is that people > are experimenting with new(ish) software development methodologies in > *other* environments nowadays. > The example-du-jour is of course Bret Victor who proposes an IDE where > we can flatten abstractions (like time) into 2d so our brains can > readily grasp and predict consequences of code alterations. Seeing that > Apple xCode IDE adopts this paradigm (with Swift) before the Smalltalk > IDE did is telling. > > Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after > browser framework and -oh yeah- let's reify packages as objects and we > still need a JIT, I observe a lot of ant-like activity at ground level > and very little 'giants' activity at the 'how to encode my abstractions' > level. (Another example: there still is no accepted paradigm in the > Smalltalk community that instructs us how to document implementation > requirements and decisions -- go figure). > So the programmer's discourse with the Smalltalk machine has not changed > many times in the past, perhaps just once during the introduction of > refactorings and TDD at roughly the same time. > > > What the Smalltalk community seems to miss is that 'Smalltalk 2.0 is > dead, long live Smalltalk 3.0' feeling. > > Perhaps it behooves ESUG to create a session where the community > *finally* buries Smalltalk 1.0 and perhaps also pick the date where we > sunset Smalltalk 2.0. > > > > > Go Doru, > Pharo desperately wants to escape Smalltalk 1.0 but the community > won't let you. > > > > > Reinout > - > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Johan Fabry

On Jul 31, 2014, at 7:09 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what is not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks. The thing is, I’m not so sure that there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what it is not. For us, people with many years of ST experience, this may be the case, but for (relative) newcomers I think this is not the case. Doru’s audience and the people looking at the Pharo web site would be the latter. > By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, non-Smalltalk" corner. That is ok, yet has consequences. One of those is that in this light Pharo is leaving the Smalltalk community. Whether you reckon the word "divorce" for that departure aggressive is your personal feeling. Divorce is a usual term describing the splitting of a former whole. I don't find it aggressive. Sorry if I read more into the divorce word than what you meant to put there. But I think that the word divorce has at least a negative connotation. (I guess I am not the only one but I can of course not speak for the general public.) > Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. If it was intended to say that Pharo wants to move away from some Smalltalk concept (technical or non-technical) it should be said so, and whith regards to which concept and into what differing direction. There are many ways to the future. No problem with that. Smalltalk will walk its path. Well, there are different paths to the future, different ways to evolve towards similar - or different - goals. Pharo is choosing its own path, but that does not imply that other ST’s cannot choose similar (or different) paths. Given the audience of Doru’s talk I think it’s OK to say it like this. With more time (or web page space) this could be made more clear of course. ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Steven Kelly

It's maybe not the best wording, but I think it's a good way to look at things. There's not much to be gained from several identical and competing Smalltalks, either for each individually or for the community as a whole, so it seems natural that one or more might want to keep their options open for "making a break" from Smalltalk. I don't think the world outside Smalltalk sees much value in something being "Smalltalk standard compatible", but it does see value in individual parts of Smalltalk (language, core libraries, IDE, ethos). Thinking freely from a starting point of Smalltalk might give rise to something that includes most that is great about Smalltalk, with extra good it's from other ecosystems, and its own improvements. As every non-Smalltalker knows "Smalltalk failed", having a new identity would make the result more marketable. I'm not saying this is the right approach, and certainly not the only one (I love my Smalltalk!), but it seems reasonable enough. Good luck to all! Steve -----Original Message----- From: "Helge Nowak" <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> Sent: ‎31/‎07/‎2014 13:08 To: "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; "ESUG" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Subject: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Dear Pharoers, I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: Pharo is NOT Smalltalk All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Cheers Helge

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Reinout Heeck

> Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved > - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community > in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies > that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I > don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to Smalltalk. The problem with the Smalltalk community is that it holds itself back. For example there are no Smalltalks with a decent namespace implementation (although there was Dave Simmons' S# for a while). The single survivor seems to be NewSpeak which clearly chose to 'divorce' itself from Smalltalk 'proper'. I recall Pharo was created because Squeak did not cater to the professional market and Pharo would conquer the FLOSS portion of that niche. Seeing that Pharo did not get host window support, nor decent namespaces it seems fair to say that the community did not get its act together -- and if we stretch it we might say that the community held Pharo back. What I see in the Smalltalk community is a giant circle-jerk (direct object manipulationz! refactoringz! TDDz! xUnitz! we are greatz!) with people wallowing in past greatness. The reality (a 'correct' observation as per the above?) is that people are experimenting with new(ish) software development methodologies in *other* environments nowadays. The example-du-jour is of course Bret Victor who proposes an IDE where we can flatten abstractions (like time) into 2d so our brains can readily grasp and predict consequences of code alterations. Seeing that Apple xCode IDE adopts this paradigm (with Swift) before the Smalltalk IDE did is telling. Seeing that Pharo and Squeak are still producing browser framework after browser framework and -oh yeah- let's reify packages as objects and we still need a JIT, I observe a lot of ant-like activity at ground level and very little 'giants' activity at the 'how to encode my abstractions' level. (Another example: there still is no accepted paradigm in the Smalltalk community that instructs us how to document implementation requirements and decisions -- go figure). So the programmer's discourse with the Smalltalk machine has not changed many times in the past, perhaps just once during the introduction of refactorings and TDD at roughly the same time. What the Smalltalk community seems to miss is that 'Smalltalk 2.0 is dead, long live Smalltalk 3.0' feeling. Perhaps it behooves ESUG to create a session where the community *finally* buries Smalltalk 1.0 and perhaps also pick the date where we sunset Smalltalk 2.0. Go Doru, Pharo desperately wants to escape Smalltalk 1.0 but the community won't let you. Reinout -

July 31, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

by Niall Ross

Dear Helge, Johan et al, to me, it seems obvious that Pharo is Smalltalk, in a sense in which Ruby et al are not Smalltalk although they are Smalltalk-inspired. Of course, all Smalltalks are also inspired by earlier Smalltalks and by other current Smalltalks. All Smalltalk dialects share a good deal of base class library compatibility but of course even as regards non-UI, what runs on one Smalltalk may DNU on another, unless written with a cross-dialect goal in view or using a compatibility layer or with some code differences in dialect versions. When you get into the area of UI, compatibility is more the exception than the rule. It may be that the talk's phrasing was accidentally a bit misleading - or was intentionally exaggerated to avoid a "Smalltalk - isn't that old" reaction from that particular audience. I don't mind exactly what is said in any particular talk oriented to a particular audience, but it seems clear to me that Pharo is a dialect of Smalltalk; it is not _just_ Smalltalk-inspired. Just my 0.02p FWIW Niall Ross Helge Nowak wrote: > Dear Johan, > > I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what > is not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I > considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the > Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks. > > By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, > non-Smalltalk" corner. That is ok, yet has consequences. One of those > is that in this light Pharo is leaving the Smalltalk community. > Whether you reckon the word "divorce" for that departure aggressive is > your personal feeling. Divorce is a usual term describing the > splitting of a former whole. I don't find it aggressive. > > Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved > - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community > in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies > that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I > don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to > Smalltalk. If it was intended to say that Pharo wants to move away > from some Smalltalk concept (technical or non-technical) it should be > said so, and whith regards to which concept and into what differing > direction. There are many ways to the future. No problem with that. > Smalltalk will walk its path. > > Cheers > Helge > „Wege entstehen dadurch, dass man sie geht.“, Franz Kafka > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Von:* Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > *An:* Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> > *CC:* "pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org" > <pharo-business(a)lists.pharo.org>; > "pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" > <pharo-consortium(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > *Gesendet:* 12:24 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 > *Betreff:* Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" > > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de > <mailto:hknowak@yahoo.de>> wrote: > > > Dear Pharoers, > > > > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on > Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk > inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired > because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: > > • Pharo is NOT Smalltalk > > Well, the question may also be: what IS Smalltalk? The ANSI Standard? > ST-80? Whose implementation IS Smalltalk in that case? I think many > current implementations may safely say that they are Smalltalk-inpired. > > > • All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future > > I think you are overgeneralizing. Doru is saying that Pharo is not > sticking to (let’s say) the historical concept of Smalltalk. Sure, you > may imply from that that some Smalltalks ARE sticking to that concept. > But IMO it is not valid to conclude that he is saying that ALL of them > are like that. > > > • The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community > that gave them birth > > I don’t follow your reasoning. Divorce is a very strong and aggressive > statement. I don’t see that from what Doru is saying. Could you > provide more detail for your train of thought? > > > > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the > Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. > > > Just my 0.02EUR ... > > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org > <http://emailcharter.org/><--- > > Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry <http://pleiad.cl/%7Ejfabry> > PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

July 31, 2014