February 2014 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Johan Fabry

+1 on this. On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > I support it, too. > > The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) > > So, I suggest this: > - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). > - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. > > Esteban > > On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > > > I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin > > and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. > > > > Stephan Eggermont > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Tudor Girba

I support it, too. The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) So, I suggest this: - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. Cheers, Doru On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>wrote: > I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion > in private. > > Esteban > > On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > > > I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin > > and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. > > > > Stephan Eggermont > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Esteban Lorenzano

I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. Esteban On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin > and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. > > Stephan Eggermont > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stephan Eggermont

I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. Stephan Eggermont

Feb. 10, 2014

The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Janko Mivšek

Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > Janko CAN YOU STOP! > > "blatantly unethical behavior” > Really > > Stef Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? Janko >> Phil, >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. >> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >> murky waters more and more. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be >> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>: >>> Guys, >>> >>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>> the kindergarten. >>> >>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>> >>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>> >>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Janko, >>> >>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si> >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>> misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>> while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>> report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>> pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>> loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>> apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FACTS >>>> >>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>> projects in 2013. >>>> >>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>> by Google. >>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>> >>>> All in all we paid: >>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>> GSOC) each >>>> projects >>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>> >>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>> >>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>> sponsorized 3. >>>> >>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>> mentor >>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>> recognizes ESUG >>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>> >>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>> >>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>> *own* time >>>> and it takes a lot! >>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>> falvors!) >>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>> >>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>> I can do errors too. >>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>> >>>> I cannot admit that: >>>> >>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>> directed >>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>> hide or >>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>> >>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>> have done a >>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>> ME for >>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>> >>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>> yesterday and I >>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>> >>>> >>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>> problems together >>>> if any. >>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>> >>>> #Luc >>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>> in bad mood -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Pharo Weekly

by Tudor Girba

Excellent! Thanks, Doru On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Hi guys > > I started a blog about pharo for those that do not want to read 1000 mails > to get information :) > > http://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/ > > > Spread the word > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] It makes my toes curl

by Tudor Girba

Thank you, Reinout :) Doru On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > > dear Smalltalk promoters, > I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture. > > I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about > anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties. > > > > So this stuff: > >> Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by >> "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? >> > > please take it to a private place, not at this party. > > > > And this stuff: > > Cc: "smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com" > <smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com>, > The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org>, > Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org>, > "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be>, > ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>, > pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > > > is like my friends yelling at night keeping half the street awake. > > > > It makes my toes curl in shame, > please -pretty please- tune it down. > > > > > Reinout > ----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Marcus Denker

On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:08, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > >> Phil, >> >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because >> it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases >> blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is >> certainly bad for our community on long term. > > > > Janko CAN YOU STOP! > > "blatantly unethical behavior” > Really > I propose we do at the next ESUG the following: - the general assembly sets up and vote for a small group (3-5 people?) - they look into the issues - then report back to the general assembly It will of course been taken care that this gremium is independed. Because via email this is really not going to work. Marcus

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

Paolo we are > blatantly unethical behavior so we cannot do more. Stef >> Paolo >> >> I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this. >> Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think >> that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it? >> I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like >> that. I will make us lose too much energy. >> Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do. > > Stef, > > please calm down. I *hope* that you wanted to make this mail private. Public mailing lists are not the right place for this language, much less with such a wide crosspost. > > I already mentioned that all I care about is to have students funded by Google and working in Smalltalk. ESUG will get $500 per student, and can use them to send more people to the mentor summit or whatever else they prefer---I don't want to have *anything* to do with how ESUG spends their GSoC money. > > Paolo > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

> Phil, > > This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because > it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases > blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is > certainly bad for our community on long term. Janko CAN YOU STOP! "blatantly unethical behavior” Really Stef > > Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a > community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into > murky waters more and more. > > Best regards > Janko > > Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be: >> Guys, >> >> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >> the kindergarten. >> >> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >> >> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >> >> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Janko, >> >> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >> >> Luc >> >> >> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >> >> Dear all, >> >> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >> misguided. >> >> Facts namely are: >> >> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while >> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >> report >> back to GSoC mentors, >> >> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for >> paying extra projects [2][3]. >> >> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >> >> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >> ------------------------------ >> 13.000 USD >> >> Expenses: >> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >> >> Difference: + 4.000 USD >> >> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >> loose any >> money but gain 4.000 USD. >> >> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >> apologize to >> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >> >> Janko >> >> [1] >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >> [2] >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >> [3] >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >> >> >> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> ------------ >>> FACTS >>> >>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>> projects in 2013. >>> >>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >> by Google. >>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >> Benjamin Arezki. >>> >>> All in all we paid: >>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >> GSOC) each >>> projects >>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>> >>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>> >>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>> sponsorized 3. >>> >>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >> mentor >>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >> recognizes ESUG >>> ang gives slots the next year. >>> >>> It is alos important to note dates. >>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>> >>> ------------ >>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>> >>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >> *own* time >>> and it takes a lot! >>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >> falvors!) >>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>> >>> I also completely open to discussions. >>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>> I can do errors too. >>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>> >>> I cannot admit that: >>> >>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >> directed >>> against the treasurer so me. >>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >> hide or >>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>> >>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >> have done a >>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >> ME for >>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>> >>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >> yesterday and I >>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>> >>> >>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >> problems together >>> if any. >>> But I think it will never happen... >>> >>> #Luc >>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >> in bad mood >>> >> >> >> -- >> Janko Mivšek >> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >> >> >> > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Svetovalec za informatiko > Eranova d.o.o. > Ljubljana, Slovenija > www.eranova.si > tel: 01 514 22 55 > faks: 01 514 22 56 > gsm: 031 674 565

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Janko Mivšek

Hi Damien, First, I do not insult anyone and certainly praise the ESUG and you guys for all work you are doing. On the other side I cannot go over bad things happening like this one. Unacceptable behavior must be exposed and treated accordingly, as I said this is needed for any community to stay healthy long-term. > ESUG might have done a mistake giving 5000€ to the students and not > the amount that people voted for. I should have paid more attention to > that and I apologize. That's all I will apologize for. Thanks for your apologize, it is appreciated. Still I think we deserve an apologize from those who spreaded privately and publicly the 'we lost money' claim. > Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by > "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? This is story from GSoC 2010, a first GSoC I run as admin. Because it is so blatant, I give to the main actor a first word, then I'll explain and put on table my side of the story and arguments. In any case, this story is main reason that I started then already pushing Smalltalk GSoC to be as independent as possible, with current rename to Smalltalk proposal as a culmination. Best regards Janko Dne 10. 02. 2014 10:40, piše Damien Cassou: > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because >> it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases >> blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. > > I thank you for your efforts running the GSoC marathon every year. > > Nevertheless, as a member of the board I feel insulted again by you > Janko. I'm tired spending hours doing work for everyone and get such a > message as an answer > > > Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by > "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? > > Last time we talked about the representation of the Smalltalk > community in the ESUG board, I asked people from other communities to > apply and come work with us > (http://lists.esug.org/pipermail/esug-list_lists.esug.org/2012-July/001849.h…) > Nobody applied! I will ask again, thanks for the remainder. Who is > going to take care of ESUG if we focus on taking care of Pharo? > > Please stop insulting people. If you want to stop organizing the GSoC > for the Smalltalk community just say it clearly and we will all thank > you for the effort you have put in during this last years. But if you > want to continue, please do it with ESUG as this is what the ESUG > community seems to want if I analyse the answers you got to the recent > threads. >

Feb. 10, 2014

It makes my toes curl

by Reinout Heeck

dear Smalltalk promoters, I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture. I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties. So this stuff: > Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by > "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? please take it to a private place, not at this party. And this stuff: Cc: "smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com" <smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com>, The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org>, Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org>, "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be>, ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>, pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> is like my friends yelling at night keeping half the street awake. It makes my toes curl in shame, please -pretty please- tune it down. Reinout -----

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Damien Cassou

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because > it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases > blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. I thank you for your efforts running the GSoC marathon every year. Nevertheless, as a member of the board I feel insulted again by you Janko. I'm tired spending hours doing work for everyone and get such a message as an answer ESUG might have done a mistake giving 5000€ to the students and not the amount that people voted for. I should have paid more attention to that and I apologize. That's all I will apologize for. Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? Last time we talked about the representation of the Smalltalk community in the ESUG board, I asked people from other communities to apply and come work with us (http://lists.esug.org/pipermail/esug-list_lists.esug.org/2012-July/001849.h…) Nobody applied! I will ask again, thanks for the remainder. Who is going to take care of ESUG if we focus on taking care of Pharo? Please stop insulting people. If you want to stop organizing the GSoC for the Smalltalk community just say it clearly and we will all thank you for the effort you have put in during this last years. But if you want to continue, please do it with ESUG as this is what the ESUG community seems to want if I analyse the answers you got to the recent threads. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 10/02/2014 10:16, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto: > Paolo > > I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this. > Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think > that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it? > I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like > that. I will make us lose too much energy. > Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do. Stef, please calm down. I *hope* that you wanted to make this mail private. Public mailing lists are not the right place for this language, much less with such a wide crosspost. I already mentioned that all I care about is to have students funded by Google and working in Smalltalk. ESUG will get $500 per student, and can use them to send more people to the mentor summit or whatever else they prefer---I don't want to have *anything* to do with how ESUG spends their GSoC money. Paolo

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Joachim Tuchel

Phil, That's your opinion. I don't think money of sponsors should be spent with such an attitude. Unfortunately, I do not fully unerstand what Janko is saying and the links he provided don't help me really. Is he saying that the ESUG board ignored the vote of gsoc mentors on how much to pay to students in the additional projects? Was that money spent unequally and does Janko say this was unfair and does he say the projects that got more did so because they were pharo projects? If so, this needs some explanation. If it's not true, we can go on and say the board did it with the members' placet. Then we can shrug and say "so what?" Thats what we have a motivated and elected board for. I agree with you in so far as this is a really bad moment in time for this discussion. If all of tgis means gsoc comes to a halt for Smalltalk because we cannot apply in time, that would be really a pity. As a sponsor, I'd like to know what Janko is really up to and if the way things went is okay, since I want our money to be spent for positive things, like the yearly conference and many other great things esug is doing. As a sponsor, I wouldn't want to see anybody in the board to think about our money the way you expresss it here. Even if Esug is a european organization, it has very limited financial abilities, and 4000 euros thrown away or used unethically is not peanuts. Joachim phil(a)highoctane.be schrieb: >Guys, > >>From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >the kindergarten. > >All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >Backwards, there is a fair chance. > >Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. > >Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to fight >over for an European org... (rolleyes). > >Phil > > > > >On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com>wrote: > >> Hi Janko, >> >> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 extra-GSOC >> but we paid only 3 because one student gave up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate last >> year BUT we were willing to spend it. >> >> Luc >> >> >> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > ------------ >>> > FACTS >>> > >>> > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>> > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>> > projects in 2013. >>> > >>> > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by >>> Google. >>> > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. >>> > >>> > All in all we paid: >>> > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each >>> > projects >>> > - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>> > >>> > And we received 5552EUR from Google >>> > >>> > so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>> > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>> > sponsorized 3. >>> > >>> > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor >>> > summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG >>> > ang gives slots the next year. >>> > >>> > It is alos important to note dates. >>> > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>> > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>> > >>> > ------------ >>> > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>> > >>> > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time >>> > and it takes a lot! >>> > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) >>> > is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>> > >>> > I also completely open to discussions. >>> > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>> > I can do errors too. >>> > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>> > >>> > I cannot admit that: >>> > >>> > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed >>> > against the treasurer so me. >>> > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or >>> > steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>> > >>> > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a >>> > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for >>> > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>> > >>> > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I >>> > am spending my week-end with my kids >>> > >>> > >>> > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>> > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together >>> > if any. >>> > But I think it will never happen... >>> > >>> > #Luc >>> > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Janko Mivšek >>> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >>> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

Paolo I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this. Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it? I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like that. I will make us lose too much energy. Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do. Stef > Dear all, > > First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be > blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided. > > Facts namely are: > > 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while > ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report > back to GSoC mentors, > > 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for > paying extra projects [2][3]. > > Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: > > Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > ------------------------------ > 13.000 USD > > Expenses: > Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD > > Difference: + 4.000 USD > > If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any > money but gain 4.000 USD. > > Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to > you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! > > Janko > > [1] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg > [2] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 > [3] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw > > > Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >> Hi all, >> >> ------------ >> FACTS >> >> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >> projects in 2013. >> >> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. >> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. >> >> All in all we paid: >> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each >> projects >> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >> >> And we received 5552EUR from Google >> >> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >> sponsorized 3. >> >> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor >> summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG >> ang gives slots the next year. >> >> It is alos important to note dates. >> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >> >> ------------ >> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >> >> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time >> and it takes a lot! >> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) >> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >> >> I also completely open to discussions. >> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >> I can do errors too. >> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >> >> I cannot admit that: >> >> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed >> against the treasurer so me. >> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or >> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >> >> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a >> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for >> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >> >> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I >> am spending my week-end with my kids >> >> >> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together >> if any. >> But I think it will never happen... >> >> #Luc >> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood >> > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any > money but gain 4.000 USD. This is what I thought when luc told me that we lost money. Now he did not show to he ESUG board the exact details because he did not crawl yet in all the bills. Now if you check the old in the mailing-list I even said that there was no problem for 2000 Euros esug would cover that if this cover an extra student. > From: =?utf-8?Q?St=E9phane_Ducasse?= <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="Apple-Mail=_A78B91E4-981F-4B83-9067-420161886C2C" > Message-Id: <289E789F-067E-420F-98EC-4F1864BCE256(a)inria.fr> > Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 $1503$) > X-Smtp-Server: smtp.inria.fr:sducasse > Subject: Re: [gsoc-mentors] Inform the students of four extra projects! > Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 13:34:36 +0200 > X-Universally-Unique-Identifier: 89665803-9c98-4385-80b9-e5c1c3e1e418 > References: <b29080aa-e7b3-4e5a-9e15-8a5166c8b50a(a)googlegroups.com> <51A45CBF.10201(a)gmail.com> <fb3802c2-1be6-42bc-a12f-47bc528fa7b9(a)googlegroups.com> <f63d8d0d-28cf-438c-ad77-4bfdba8ed376(a)googlegroups.com> <51A48D00.20701(a)gmail.com> <0fa78595-f94f-4bdb-aa07-2a706d2b9cc1(a)googlegroups.com> > To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com > In-Reply-To: <0fa78595-f94f-4bdb-aa07-2a706d2b9cc1(a)googlegroups.com> > > > --Apple-Mail=_A78B91E4-981F-4B83-9067-420161886C2C > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=windows-1252 > > Guys > > ESUG can solve that. we should avoid to spend time on that for 2000 = > Euros. > > > Stef > On May 28, 2013, at 1:06 PM, Janko Miv=9Aek <janko.mivsek(a)gmail.com> = > wrote: So Janko I would be grateful that you STOP. > Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to > you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! Who are those guys? Seriously you are getting really over. Stef > > Janko > > [1] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg > [2] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 > [3] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw > > > Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >> Hi all, >> >> ------------ >> FACTS >> >> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >> projects in 2013. >> >> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. >> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. >> >> All in all we paid: >> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each >> projects >> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >> >> And we received 5552EUR from Google >> >> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >> sponsorized 3. >> >> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor >> summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG >> ang gives slots the next year. >> >> It is alos important to note dates. >> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >> >> ------------ >> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >> >> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time >> and it takes a lot! >> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) >> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >> >> I also completely open to discussions. >> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >> I can do errors too. >> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >> >> I cannot admit that: >> >> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed >> against the treasurer so me. >> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or >> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >> >> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a >> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for >> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >> >> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I >> am spending my week-end with my kids >> >> >> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together >> if any. >> But I think it will never happen... >> >> #Luc >> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood >> > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by phil＠highoctane.be

Janko, >From what I know from good business practices is that what helps in keeping things in order is good financial management and transparency. So, the general ledger should be made accessible so things are clear on that front. For the Google story, upfront payment by ESUG while waiting for Google money should have been registered with postings that reflected that (like with an account on "expected revenue from Google") and balanced against it. If one would spend money beyond the credit limits, there would be an issue. So, escalation should be taking place to decide. There seems to be a board, and the board ultimately decides on that front. Which it apparently did. Whoever is not happy with that decision will at one point accept it as this is the top decision point. Or start a revolution, split, or whatever. There are always things going on behind the curtain. Politics is a fact of life. I you have a personal gripe with some members, you put the dead rat on the table. Now is it time time speak up about who/what/why and discuss that with them. Now, the Smalltalk community appears to be fragmented, and the Pharo|Squeak technology, even if very cool, is currently not helping me much on the revenue making front. My bottom line isn't booking more that EUR 15K on Pharo related sales. Not that I am not pushing. I'd love to be putting decent bread on the table through Pharo. FWIW, when it comes to current trends like Internet of Things, BigData [Hadoop stuff], and Mobile, Smalltalk is at ground zero given the ecosystem. So, fighting internally like that isn't getting us forward while everything is swooshing past. Phil On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>wrote: > Phil, > > This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because > it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases > blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is > certainly bad for our community on long term. > > Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a > community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into > murky waters more and more. > > Best regards > Janko > > Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be: > > Guys, > > > > From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in > > the kindergarten. > > > > All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. > > Backwards, there is a fair chance. > > > > Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. > > > > Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to > > fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com > > <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Hi Janko, > > > > I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 > > extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave > > up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). > > So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate > > last year BUT we were willing to spend it. > > > > Luc > > > > > > 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si > > <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: > > > > Dear all, > > > > First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to > be > > blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and > > misguided. > > > > Facts namely are: > > > > 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] > while > > ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any > > report > > back to GSoC mentors, > > > > 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool > for > > paying extra projects [2][3]. > > > > Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: > > > > Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > > GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > > ------------------------------ > > 13.000 USD > > > > Expenses: > > Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD > > > > Difference: + 4.000 USD > > > > If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't > > loose any > > money but gain 4.000 USD. > > > > Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to > > apologize to > > you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! > > > > Janko > > > > [1] > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg > > [2] > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 > > [3] > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw > > > > > > Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > ------------ > > > FACTS > > > > > > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. > > > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of > GSOC > > > projects in 2013. > > > > > > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted > > by Google. > > > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and > > Benjamin Arezki. > > > > > > All in all we paid: > > > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular > > GSOC) each > > > projects > > > - Serge trip to Mentor summit > > > > > > And we received 5552EUR from Google > > > > > > so yes we lost ~6582EUR > > > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc > and we > > > sponsorized 3. > > > > > > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc > > mentor > > > summit because it participates to the fact that Google > > recognizes ESUG > > > ang gives slots the next year. > > > > > > It is alos important to note dates. > > > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. > > > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. > > > > > > ------------ > > > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: > > > > > > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my > > *own* time > > > and it takes a lot! > > > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all > > falvors!) > > > is a really great language that should be more widespread. > > > > > > I also completely open to discussions. > > > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money > status. > > > I can do errors too. > > > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! > > > > > > I cannot admit that: > > > > > > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly > > directed > > > against the treasurer so me. > > > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I > > hide or > > > steal money make me think that I should better quit. > > > > > > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would > > have done a > > > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK > > ME for > > > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any > > > > > > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started > > yesterday and I > > > am spending my week-end with my kids > > > > > > > > > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. > > > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the > > problems together > > > if any. > > > But I think it will never happen... > > > > > > #Luc > > > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end > > in bad mood > > > > > > > > > -- > > Janko Mivšek > > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team > > > > > > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Svetovalec za informatiko > Eranova d.o.o. > Ljubljana, Slovenija > www.eranova.si > tel: 01 514 22 55 > faks: 01 514 22 56 > gsm: 031 674 565 > >

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Janko Mivšek

Phil, This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into murky waters more and more. Best regards Janko Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be: > Guys, > > From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in > the kindergarten. > > All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. > Backwards, there is a fair chance. > > Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. > > Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to > fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). > > Phil > > > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com > <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Hi Janko, > > I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 > extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave > up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). > So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate > last year BUT we were willing to spend it. > > Luc > > > 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si > <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: > > Dear all, > > First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be > blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and > misguided. > > Facts namely are: > > 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while > ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any > report > back to GSoC mentors, > > 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for > paying extra projects [2][3]. > > Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: > > Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > ------------------------------ > 13.000 USD > > Expenses: > Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD > > Difference: + 4.000 USD > > If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't > loose any > money but gain 4.000 USD. > > Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to > apologize to > you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! > > Janko > > [1] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg > [2] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 > [3] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw > > > Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: > > Hi all, > > > > ------------ > > FACTS > > > > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. > > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC > > projects in 2013. > > > > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted > by Google. > > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and > Benjamin Arezki. > > > > All in all we paid: > > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular > GSOC) each > > projects > > - Serge trip to Mentor summit > > > > And we received 5552EUR from Google > > > > so yes we lost ~6582EUR > > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we > > sponsorized 3. > > > > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc > mentor > > summit because it participates to the fact that Google > recognizes ESUG > > ang gives slots the next year. > > > > It is alos important to note dates. > > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. > > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. > > > > ------------ > > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: > > > > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my > *own* time > > and it takes a lot! > > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all > falvors!) > > is a really great language that should be more widespread. > > > > I also completely open to discussions. > > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. > > I can do errors too. > > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! > > > > I cannot admit that: > > > > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly > directed > > against the treasurer so me. > > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I > hide or > > steal money make me think that I should better quit. > > > > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would > have done a > > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK > ME for > > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any > > > > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started > yesterday and I > > am spending my week-end with my kids > > > > > > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. > > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the > problems together > > if any. > > But I think it will never happen... > > > > #Luc > > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end > in bad mood > > > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team > > > -- Janko Mivšek Svetovalec za informatiko Eranova d.o.o. Ljubljana, Slovenija www.eranova.si tel: 01 514 22 55 faks: 01 514 22 56 gsm: 031 674 565

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by phil＠highoctane.be

Guys, >From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in the kindergarten. All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. Backwards, there is a fair chance. Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). Phil On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Hi Janko, > > I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 extra-GSOC > but we paid only 3 because one student gave up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). > So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate last > year BUT we were willing to spend it. > > Luc > > > 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>: > >> Dear all, >> >> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided. >> >> Facts namely are: >> >> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while >> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report >> back to GSoC mentors, >> >> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for >> paying extra projects [2][3]. >> >> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >> >> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >> ------------------------------ >> 13.000 USD >> >> Expenses: >> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >> >> Difference: + 4.000 USD >> >> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any >> money but gain 4.000 USD. >> >> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to >> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >> >> Janko >> >> [1] >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >> [2] >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >> [3] >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >> >> >> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > ------------ >> > FACTS >> > >> > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >> > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >> > projects in 2013. >> > >> > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by >> Google. >> > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. >> > >> > All in all we paid: >> > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each >> > projects >> > - Serge trip to Mentor summit >> > >> > And we received 5552EUR from Google >> > >> > so yes we lost ~6582EUR >> > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >> > sponsorized 3. >> > >> > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor >> > summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG >> > ang gives slots the next year. >> > >> > It is alos important to note dates. >> > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >> > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >> > >> > ------------ >> > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >> > >> > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time >> > and it takes a lot! >> > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) >> > is a really great language that should be more widespread. >> > >> > I also completely open to discussions. >> > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >> > I can do errors too. >> > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >> > >> > I cannot admit that: >> > >> > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed >> > against the treasurer so me. >> > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or >> > steal money make me think that I should better quit. >> > >> > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a >> > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for >> > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >> > >> > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I >> > am spending my week-end with my kids >> > >> > >> > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >> > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together >> > if any. >> > But I think it will never happen... >> > >> > #Luc >> > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood >> > >> >> >> -- >> Janko Mivšek >> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >> > >

Feb. 10, 2014

Pharo Weekly

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi guys I started a blog about pharo for those that do not want to read 1000 mails to get information :) http://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/ Spread the word Stef

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Luc Fabresse

Hi Janko, I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate last year BUT we were willing to spend it. Luc 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>: > Dear all, > > First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be > blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided. > > Facts namely are: > > 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while > ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report > back to GSoC mentors, > > 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for > paying extra projects [2][3]. > > Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: > > Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD > ------------------------------ > 13.000 USD > > Expenses: > Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD > > Difference: + 4.000 USD > > If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any > money but gain 4.000 USD. > > Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to > you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! > > Janko > > [1] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg > [2] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 > [3] > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw > > > Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: > > Hi all, > > > > ------------ > > FACTS > > > > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. > > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC > > projects in 2013. > > > > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. > > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. > > > > All in all we paid: > > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each > > projects > > - Serge trip to Mentor summit > > > > And we received 5552EUR from Google > > > > so yes we lost ~6582EUR > > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we > > sponsorized 3. > > > > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor > > summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG > > ang gives slots the next year. > > > > It is alos important to note dates. > > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. > > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. > > > > ------------ > > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: > > > > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time > > and it takes a lot! > > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) > > is a really great language that should be more widespread. > > > > I also completely open to discussions. > > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. > > I can do errors too. > > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! > > > > I cannot admit that: > > > > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed > > against the treasurer so me. > > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or > > steal money make me think that I should better quit. > > > > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a > > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for > > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any > > > > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I > > am spending my week-end with my kids > > > > > > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. > > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together > > if any. > > But I think it will never happen... > > > > #Luc > > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood > > > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Richard Sargent

I for one am grateful to Luc, Stéphane, and the rest of the ESUG volunteers for all the work they do. And I am grateful to the many people who are making Pharo the active free Smalltalk it is. I think Luc's advice "Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together if any" is good advice. I would offer one small bit of advice, too. The communication on this mailing list is predominantly in ENglish (for which I am also grateful!). There are many people posting on it whose first language is not English. There will certainly be poorly phrased statements and miscommunications, so it is especially important that people have discussions before posting things to the list for all to see. _____ From: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Luc Fabresse Sent: February 9, 2014 08:27 To: Janko Mivšek; ESUG Mailing list; smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com Cc: pharo-users; Pharo Development List; The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude Hi all, ------------ FACTS As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC projects in 2013. ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. All in all we paid: - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each projects - Serge trip to Mentor summit And we received 5552EUR from Google so yes we lost ~6582EUR That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we sponsorized 3. I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG ang gives slots the next year. It is alos important to note dates. ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. ------------ FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time and it takes a lot! I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) is a really great language that should be more widespread. I also completely open to discussions. The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. I can do errors too. So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! I cannot admit that: - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed against the treasurer so me. And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or steal money make me think that I should better quit. - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I am spending my week-end with my kids I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together if any. But I think it will never happen... #Luc The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood

Feb. 9, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Janko Mivšek

Dear all, First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided. Facts namely are: 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report back to GSoC mentors, 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for paying extra projects [2][3]. Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD ------------------------------ 13.000 USD Expenses: Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD Difference: + 4.000 USD If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any money but gain 4.000 USD. Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! Janko [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 [3] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: > Hi all, > > ------------ > FACTS > > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC > projects in 2013. > > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. > > All in all we paid: > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each > projects > - Serge trip to Mentor summit > > And we received 5552EUR from Google > > so yes we lost ~6582EUR > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we > sponsorized 3. > > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor > summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG > ang gives slots the next year. > > It is alos important to note dates. > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. > > ------------ > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: > > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time > and it takes a lot! > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) > is a really great language that should be more widespread. > > I also completely open to discussions. > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. > I can do errors too. > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! > > I cannot admit that: > > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed > against the treasurer so me. > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or > steal money make me think that I should better quit. > > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any > > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I > am spending my week-end with my kids > > > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together > if any. > But I think it will never happen... > > #Luc > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood > -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 9, 2014

The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Luc Fabresse

Hi all, ------------ FACTS As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC projects in 2013. ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. All in all we paid: - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each projects - Serge trip to Mentor summit And we received 5552EUR from Google so yes we lost ~6582EUR That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we sponsorized 3. I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG ang gives slots the next year. It is alos important to note dates. ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. ------------ FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time and it takes a lot! I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) is a really great language that should be more widespread. I also completely open to discussions. The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. I can do errors too. So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! I cannot admit that: - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed against the treasurer so me. And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or steal money make me think that I should better quit. - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I am spending my week-end with my kids I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together if any. But I think it will never happen... #Luc The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood

Feb. 9, 2014