February 2014 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

[SmalltalkHub down] The server hosting SmalltalkHub at Inria is not responding

by Nicolas Petton

Hi guys, The server hosting SmalltalkHub at Inria is not responding. SmalltalkHub is therefore down. I contacted the Inria server admins to learn more about this incident, without success for now. I'll do my best to put it back online as soon as possible! Cheers, Nico -- Nicolas Petton http://nicolas-petton.fr

Feb. 11, 2014

[GSoC 2014] Announcing Nicolas Petton as co-admin

by Paolo Bonzini

I'm pleased to announce that Nicolas Petton will be helping me with administration of the GSoC. As you may know, Nicolas is the lead developer of Amber Smalltalk and the Iliad web framework. He has worked with many other Smalltalk dialects in the past, including GNU Smalltalk and Pharo. In the interest of transparency, I will mention that: - I had previously asked Damien Cassou, but he preferred to have someone more neutral than an ESUG board member. It is interesting that I had picked him *exactly* because he was an ESUG board member. :) - Nico will be submitting project ideas for Amber and he might thus serve as a mentor too (I won't). Nevertheless, I'm sure that the selection process will be as transparent as possible. Thanks, Paolo

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Göran Krampe

Hi Igor and all! On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP] > Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, > we even share the VM! > > And I am not sure people understand how important this has been > for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has > been done through Newspeakish money, right? > > > Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I > first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form > there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create > Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. > In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at > Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement > systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no > Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed > or reliable. > > I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community > will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is > definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. > > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not > (clearly it is). > The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. > (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). > So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run > and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk > projects under ESUG umbrella? Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :) > If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, > who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;) regards, Göran PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject.

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Richard Sargent

Janko, You have already thrown a brick. I don't understand your refusal to throw stones. Who is being accused of doing what? Spell it out for us. Sent from my Samsung S III -------- Original message -------- From: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> Date: 2014/02/10 02:57 (GMT-08:00) To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com Cc: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>,Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org>,The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Subject: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > Janko CAN YOU STOP! > > "blatantly unethical behavior” > Really > > Stef Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? Janko >> Phil, >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. >> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >> murky waters more and more. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be >> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>: >>> Guys, >>> >>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>> the kindergarten. >>> >>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>> >>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>> >>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Janko, >>> >>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si> >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>> misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>> while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>> report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>> pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>> loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>> apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FACTS >>>> >>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>> projects in 2013. >>>> >>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>> by Google. >>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>> >>>> All in all we paid: >>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>> GSOC) each >>>> projects >>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>> >>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>> >>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>> sponsorized 3. >>>> >>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>> mentor >>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>> recognizes ESUG >>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>> >>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>> >>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>> *own* time >>>> and it takes a lot! >>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>> falvors!) >>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>> >>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>> I can do errors too. >>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>> >>>> I cannot admit that: >>>> >>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>> directed >>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>> hide or >>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>> >>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>> have done a >>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>> ME for >>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>> >>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>> yesterday and I >>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>> >>>> >>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>> problems together >>>> if any. >>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>> >>>> #Luc >>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>> in bad mood -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Dennis Schetinin

:) Sorry, not very serious but still: "Newspeak is a new programming language *in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk*" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/] "Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk-inspired environment*" [http://www.pharo-project.org/home] Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only "Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired? According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then Pharo :) And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to say... But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community. -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > > > > On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All, >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se> wrote: >> >>> Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers! >>> >>> Cross-posting continues... >>> >>> >>> On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote: >>> >>>> I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. >>>> >>> >>> Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here) >>> >>> I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was >>>> *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is >>>> >>>> sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a >>>> different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be >>>> inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. >>>> >>> >>> Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even >>> share the VM! >>> >>> And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us >>> Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through >>> Newspeakish money, right? >>> >> >> Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first >> worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now >> familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back >> at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has >> only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence >> we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without >> Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be >> nearly as developed or reliable. >> >> I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will >> consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a >> blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. >> >> > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not > (clearly it is). > The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. > (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). > So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run > and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk > projects under ESUG umbrella? > > If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, > who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. > > > > >> >>> [SNIP] >>> >>> I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the >>>> recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have >>>> done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community >>>> (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. >>>> >>> >>> Cool! >>> >>> The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming >>> all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities >>> (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. >>> >>> This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants >>> have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also >>> shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can >>> really... make a mess :) >>> >>> 3 timesRepeat: [ >>> If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] >>> >>> regards, Göran >>> >>> PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest >>> his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move >>> on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to >>> hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha! >> >> >> Amen! >> Eliot >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > > >

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Igor Stasenko

On 11 February 2014 01:30, Alexander Lazarević <alexander(a)lazarevic.de>wrote: > Wait wait wait wait! Now I get it! This is a drama queen contest, isn't > it?! Where can I vote? > > People please relax, try to get laid over the weekend and let's talk on > monday again ... > > Phew .... Shhheeeezus > > you are blah-blahtly unethical! shame on you! :) > Cheers, > Alex > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 11, 2014

[GSoc 2014] Collecting project ideas and preparing the application

by Paolo Bonzini

Hi all, now that Janko has kindly accepted to step down and I've been appointed by ESUG board as organization admin, here is my proposal for GSoC 2014. Everything except publishing project ideas will be done through Google's Melange application. Project ideas will be sent by email and I'll publish them on the ESUG wiki. Therefore, here are my first two requests: - trivially, an account on the ESUG wiki so that i can collect and post the ideas; - interested mentors should start a thread for their favorite Smalltalk dialect called "[GSoC ideas] Dialect name" and send it to the project mailing list. Please Cc smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com *and myself*. This is very important in case Google Groups rejects messages from non-members or anything like that. The message could be something like this: Hi fellow <Smalltalk dialect name> hackers, ESUG, the European Smalltalk User Group, is applying for this year's Google Summer of Code. As you probably know, the Summer of Code provides the opportunity to fund students to work during the summer on <Smalltalk dialect name>. Please reply to this email (be sure to use "Reply to all") if you have ideas you would like to propose. Please include a summary of the project and links to web pages that can help prospective students to write their application. Please also include the following information: - if applicable, other dialects that you would be willing to mentor this project for - the skill level - name of the mentor(s), email addresses, and possibly any IRC network/channel/nickname where they can be found. Thanks for contributing to ESUG's Summer of Code application! <Your name here> I'm drafting the 2014 application based on past year's (http://gsoc2013.esug.org/application) Serge, can you provide me the numbers for passing and failing students in the 2013 edition? I expect to follow up in a few days and announce who the backup admin will be. Future messages will *not* be sent to esug-list(a)lists.esug.org, so please subscribe to the mentors mailing list smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com if you are interested in the program. Thanks, your friendly neighborhood GSoC administrator Paolo Bonzini

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All, > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se> wrote: > >> Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers! >> >> Cross-posting continues... >> >> >> On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote: >> >>> I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. >>> >> >> Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here) >> >> I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was >>> *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is >>> >>> sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a >>> different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be >>> inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. >>> >> >> Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even >> share the VM! >> >> And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us >> Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through >> Newspeakish money, right? >> > > Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first > worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now > familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back > at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has > only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence > we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without > Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be > nearly as developed or reliable. > > I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will > consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a > blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella? If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. > >> [SNIP] >> >> I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the >>> recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have >>> done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community >>> (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. >>> >> >> Cool! >> >> The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming >> all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities >> (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. >> >> This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants >> have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also >> shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can >> really... make a mess :) >> >> 3 timesRepeat: [ >> If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] >> >> regards, Göran >> >> PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest >> his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move >> on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to >> hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha! > > > Amen! > Eliot > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All, On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se> wrote: > Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers! > > Cross-posting continues... > > > On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > >> I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. >> > > Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here) > > I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was >> *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is >> >> sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a >> different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be >> inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. >> > > Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even > share the VM! > > And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us > Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through > Newspeakish money, right? > Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable. I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. > > [SNIP] > > I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the >> recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have >> done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community >> (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. >> > > Cool! > > The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming > all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities > (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. > > This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants > have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also > shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can > really... make a mess :) > > 3 timesRepeat: [ > If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] > > regards, Göran > > PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his > soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, > have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to > hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha! Amen! Eliot

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Göran Krampe

Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers! Cross-posting continues... On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here) > I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was > *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is > sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a > different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be > inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM! And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right? [SNIP] > I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the > recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have > done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community > (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. Cool! The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :) 3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] regards, Göran PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Igor Stasenko

Now that's the worst outcome which came out of it. Thanks, Janko.. i hope you feel better now. On 10 February 2014 18:44, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > Hi happy (or sad like me today) Smalltalkers and friends for most of you. > > Thank for the support of some of you. I think that this story is an > amazing press > for Smalltalk. I’m still shocked that people do not realise how it can be > bad for all of us. > Now I have my part of responsibility and I should not have replied to such > aggression. > But I have one rule in life is to never let people lie about me and my > projects. > > Since I feel that I cannot do much beside being systematically insulted > without the right to say anything I will quit the GSOC mentor mailing-list, > I will not propose any topics this year and I will set up a rule to any > mails with Janko or > GSOC to be trashed. > > I’m immensely sad for the students that work with me and all the people > that trust me and > judge me on my acts since all these years. > > Fools and idiots won. I lost no problem. I prefer to focus on creating > good energy. > > No need to reply because my filter is on and delete everything > automatically. > Stef > > In these moments, I wonder why I did not went in ruby. > > > On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > > > Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the > > community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. > > > > For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project > > selection process. > > > > Here is the story: > > > > On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export > > Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], > > Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the > > list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to > > such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. > > Of course I rejected such an order immediately. > > > > Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade > > study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like > > between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase > > uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve > > his goal. > > > > What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not > > quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such > > removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that > > right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for > > stipendiums. > > > > In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on > > GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. > > > > Best regards > > Janko > > > > [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool > > [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas > > > > > > > > > > Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > >> I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko > but now this makes me sick. > >> I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the > future. > >> > >> Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you > don't. > >> I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you > cannot have just words against me. > >> I will check with the inria lawyer first. > >> > >> Stef > >> > >> > >> > >>> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is > apparently alone to think that way. > >>> It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. > >>> Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult > situation! > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Alexandre > >>> > >>> > >>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I support it, too. > >>>> > >>>> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo > was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) > >>>> > >>>> So, I suggest this: > >>>> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at > the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is > going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more > structured, and not via mail). > >>>> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that > action happens now. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Doru > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano < > estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this > discussion in private. > >>>> > >>>> Esteban > >>>> > >>>> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin > >>>>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring > organisation. > >>>>> > >>>>> Stephan Eggermont > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Esug-list mailing list > >>>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Esug-list mailing list > >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> www.tudorgirba.com > >>>> > >>>> "Every thing has its own flow" > >>> > >>> -- > >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > > > > -- > > Janko Mivšek > > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Gilad Bracha

I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. So I proposed a few projects none of which were accepted. I think that's fine - no one has to agree with me on what is important or interesting. I also think that saying that Newspeak is outside the Smalltalk "tent" is a legitimate position, even if I may disagree. I know may others in the Smalltalk community have felt that Newspeak, while different, is part of the family. After all, I and I my colleagues have been invited to speak about Newspeak at Smalltalk conferences several times. I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. However, after 2010 I did not participate in GSoc, since it was clear that my ideas did not coincide with those of the wider Smalltalk community. I won't say any more on the topic. I wish you all the best, and I'm glad the GSoc effort continues. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > >> Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the >> community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. >> >> For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project >> selection process. >> >> Here is the story: >> >> On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export >> Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], >> Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the >> list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to >> such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. >> Of course I rejected such an order immediately. >> >> Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade >> study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like >> between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase >> uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve >> his goal. >> >> What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not >> quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such >> removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that >> right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for >> stipendiums. >> >> In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on >> GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool >> [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas >> >> >> > Lol. > Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed. > > Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there > are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the > language of their choice). > Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. > And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. > Case closed. > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- Cheers, Gilad

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi happy (or sad like me today) Smalltalkers and friends for most of you. Thank for the support of some of you. I think that this story is an amazing press for Smalltalk. I’m still shocked that people do not realise how it can be bad for all of us. Now I have my part of responsibility and I should not have replied to such aggression. But I have one rule in life is to never let people lie about me and my projects. Since I feel that I cannot do much beside being systematically insulted without the right to say anything I will quit the GSOC mentor mailing-list, I will not propose any topics this year and I will set up a rule to any mails with Janko or GSOC to be trashed. I’m immensely sad for the students that work with me and all the people that trust me and judge me on my acts since all these years. Fools and idiots won. I lost no problem. I prefer to focus on creating good energy. No need to reply because my filter is on and delete everything automatically. Stef In these moments, I wonder why I did not went in ruby. On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the > community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. > > For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project > selection process. > > Here is the story: > > On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export > Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], > Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the > list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to > such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. > Of course I rejected such an order immediately. > > Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade > study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like > between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase > uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve > his goal. > > What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not > quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such > removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that > right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for > stipendiums. > > In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on > GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. > > Best regards > Janko > > [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool > [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas > > > > > Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse: >> I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. >> I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future. >> >> Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. >> I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. >> I will check with the inria lawyer first. >> >> Stef >> >> >> >>> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. >>> It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. >>> Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> >>> >>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I support it, too. >>>> >>>> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) >>>> >>>> So, I suggest this: >>>> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). >>>> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. >>>> >>>> Esteban >>>> >>>> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin >>>>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. >>>>> >>>>> Stephan Eggermont >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>> >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Ron Teitelbaum

Hi Janko, So you overrode Stef’s decision, left the project in, and what happened. Did we get a Newspeak / Smalltalk translator? I’m not sure I agree with Igor here. If someone wanted to do a translator to some other language, that might be cool. Having more ways to integrate with other languages may not be a bad idea. I don’t think it would be a project for a student or something that could be properly accomplished during a summer. But I guess that doesn’t matter, a summer could get you 80% of the way there. This seems to me to be a difference of opinion and not an ethical lapse or an abuse of power. Stef was right in asking for the suggestion to be removed. You were right to disagree. In both cases it was a judgment call. It seems to me that since the project stayed on the site, that Stef was also quite reasonable. He listened to your objection, he heard your opinion, (he probably disagreed with you), and he let the idea stay on the site. The only thing that may have made this better would have been Stef requesting the removal publically. This transparency would have come at the risk of alienating the Newspeak community which in my mind is still part of the Smalltalk community, and one of the better contributors of code for all of us (considering their current work on Cog and Spur). In that light, I understand the desire to do it privately. In this case, in my opinion, everyone acted ethically. There is no blame to be found. All the best, Ron Teitelbaum Head Of Engineering 3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting <mailto:ron@3dicc.com> ron(a)3dicc.com Follow Me On Twitter: <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum> @RonTeitelbaum <http://www.3dicc.com/> www.3dicc.com <https://www.google.com/+3dicc> https://www.google.com/+3dicc From: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:15 PM To: Janko Mivšek Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude) On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process. Here is the story: On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately. Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal. What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums. In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. Best regards Janko [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas Lol. Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed. Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice). Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. Case closed. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

On 10 Feb 2014, at 16:35, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > So, if i understood correctly, > ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. > Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. yes :) Because we wanted to be fair between students :) now we are blablanty unethical :) > Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? > Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? > > I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

Marcus do not blame yourself. Your mail was plain correct. Janko wants to kill me with his systematic attacks and this is perfect, if he feels better after that. Indeed we should have never ever helped on GSOC. I was too optimistic. I will quit mentoring and do not talk to me about GSOC and Janko after that episode. > So, if i understood correctly, >> ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. >> Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. >> >> Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? >> Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? >> >> I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. Indeed igor you are just correct :) >> > > We even *decided* to spend more money, because people told us it would be unfair if not > (and they where right). > > I just remembered the discussion, not that we even solved that already last year. > > The whole discussion started because of my mail and I am kicking myself for having send it > in the first place: THERE WAS NO PROBLEM LAST YEAR. > > We just need to think about what to do this year, this is what I wanted to say in the original mail, > because what we did last year we could do last year but not again. > > Now this mail will not help anything and just add to the mess... I am really sorry for having started > the whole discussion. > > (instead of a relaxing weekend to be productive I am now an unproductive mess after a weekend > without sleep... not good). > > Marcus > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the > community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. > > For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project > selection process. > > Here is the story: > > On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export > Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], > Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the > list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to > such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. > Of course I rejected such an order immediately. > > Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade > study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like > between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase > uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve > his goal. > > What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not > quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such > removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that > right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for > stipendiums. > > In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on > GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. > > Best regards > Janko > > [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool > [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas > > > Lol. Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed. Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice). Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. Case closed. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Janko Mivšek

Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process. Here is the story: On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately. Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal. What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums. In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. Best regards Janko [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. > I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future. > > Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. > I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. > I will check with the inria lawyer first. > > Stef > > > >> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. >> It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. >> Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation! >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> >> >> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> >>> I support it, too. >>> >>> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) >>> >>> So, I suggest this: >>> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). >>> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >>> >>>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin >>>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. >>>> >>>> Stephan Eggermont >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Every thing has its own flow" >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] It makes my toes curl

by Marcus Denker

On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:03, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 10 February 2014 11:00, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > > dear Smalltalk promoters, > I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture. > > I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties. > > > > So this stuff: > Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by > "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? > > > I do agree, that using phrasing "lost money" was inappropriate. Yes, you are right. I am very sorry… when discussing ESUG things like the conference I got used to use this term, which might be wrong. “So the low scenario is XX? What if even less come? How much would we lose? Could we afford it (even if extremely unlikely)?” Marcus

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] It makes my toes curl

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 February 2014 11:00, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > > dear Smalltalk promoters, > I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture. > > I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about > anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties. > > > > So this stuff: > >> Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by >> "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? >> > > I do agree, that using phrasing "lost money" was inappropriate. ESUG is a non-profit organization and such phrasing simply cannot be applied to indicate that it was spent more money than it received. If it would be a commercial organization, such phrasing would be totally adequate. That is my only issue concerning current flame-out. I want to ask ESUG board members to not use such phrasing anymore, because they are inadequate. But i am far from calling that "blatantly unethical behavior". After all, ESUG mission is about 'losing' all the money they can get from sponsors to help promoting smalltalk. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Marcus Denker

On 10 Feb 2014, at 16:35, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > So, if i understood correctly, > ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. > Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. > > Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? > Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? > > I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. > We even *decided* to spend more money, because people told us it would be unfair if not (and they where right). I just remembered the discussion, not that we even solved that already last year. The whole discussion started because of my mail and I am kicking myself for having send it in the first place: THERE WAS NO PROBLEM LAST YEAR. We just need to think about what to do this year, this is what I wanted to say in the original mail, because what we did last year we could do last year but not again. Now this mail will not help anything and just add to the mess… I am really sorry for having started the whole discussion. (instead of a relaxing weekend to be productive I am now an unproductive mess after a weekend without sleep… not good). Marcus

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Igor Stasenko

So, if i understood correctly, ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

On 10 Feb 2014, at 13:28, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > On 2/10/14 4:24 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. > > Now now, let's not get the flames stoked again :). Sorry andres but I’m personally attack and I do not even know why and for what. We are attacked because the board thought that this is better to pay 5000 $ students so that they get the same as GSOC ones. This is really that. I cannot believe it. And I can tell you that I do not want to get anything to do with GSOC (I will redraw my topics) and Janko. Stef > > Andres. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future. Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don’t. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first. Stef > I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. > It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. > Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation! > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > > On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> I support it, too. >> >> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) >> >> So, I suggest this: >> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). >> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. >> >> Esteban >> >> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> >>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin >>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. >>> >>> Stephan Eggermont >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:57, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > >> Janko CAN YOU STOP! >> >> "blatantly unethical behavior” >> Really >> >> Stef > > Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story > about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? What? What are you talking about? Janko can you stop to systematically insult me because you are. Stef > > Janko > >>> Phil, > >>> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >>> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >>> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >>> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. > >>> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >>> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >>> murky waters more and more. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Janko >>> >>> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be >>> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>: >>>> Guys, >>>> >>>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>>> the kindergarten. >>>> >>>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>>> >>>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>>> >>>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >>>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> >>>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Janko, >>>> >>>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>>> >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si> >>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>>> misguided. >>>> >>>> Facts namely are: >>>> >>>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>>> while >>>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>>> report >>>> back to GSoC mentors, >>>> >>>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>>> pool for >>>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>>> >>>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>>> >>>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> 13.000 USD >>>> >>>> Expenses: >>>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>>> >>>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>>> >>>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>>> loose any >>>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>>> >>>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>>> apologize to >>>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>>> >>>> Janko >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>>> [2] >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>>> [3] >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>>> >>>> >>>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> ------------ >>>>> FACTS >>>>> >>>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>>> projects in 2013. >>>>> >>>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>>> by Google. >>>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>>> >>>>> All in all we paid: >>>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>>> GSOC) each >>>>> projects >>>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>>> >>>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>>> >>>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>>> sponsorized 3. >>>>> >>>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>>> mentor >>>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>>> recognizes ESUG >>>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>>> >>>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>>> >>>>> ------------ >>>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>>> >>>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>>> *own* time >>>>> and it takes a lot! >>>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>>> falvors!) >>>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>>> >>>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>>> I can do errors too. >>>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>>> >>>>> I cannot admit that: >>>>> >>>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>>> directed >>>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>>> hide or >>>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>>> >>>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>>> have done a >>>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>>> ME for >>>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>>> >>>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>>> yesterday and I >>>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>>> problems together >>>>> if any. >>>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>>> >>>>> #Luc >>>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>>> in bad mood > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014