February 2014 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

Marcus do not blame yourself. Your mail was plain correct. Janko wants to kill me with his systematic attacks and this is perfect, if he feels better after that. Indeed we should have never ever helped on GSOC. I was too optimistic. I will quit mentoring and do not talk to me about GSOC and Janko after that episode. > So, if i understood correctly, >> ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. >> Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. >> >> Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? >> Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? >> >> I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. Indeed igor you are just correct :) >> > > We even *decided* to spend more money, because people told us it would be unfair if not > (and they where right). > > I just remembered the discussion, not that we even solved that already last year. > > The whole discussion started because of my mail and I am kicking myself for having send it > in the first place: THERE WAS NO PROBLEM LAST YEAR. > > We just need to think about what to do this year, this is what I wanted to say in the original mail, > because what we did last year we could do last year but not again. > > Now this mail will not help anything and just add to the mess... I am really sorry for having started > the whole discussion. > > (instead of a relaxing weekend to be productive I am now an unproductive mess after a weekend > without sleep... not good). > > Marcus > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the > community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. > > For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project > selection process. > > Here is the story: > > On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export > Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], > Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the > list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to > such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. > Of course I rejected such an order immediately. > > Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade > study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like > between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase > uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve > his goal. > > What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not > quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such > removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that > right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for > stipendiums. > > In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on > GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. > > Best regards > Janko > > [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool > [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas > > > Lol. Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed. Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice). Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. Case closed. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Janko Mivšek

Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process. Here is the story: On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately. Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal. What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums. In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. Best regards Janko [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. > I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future. > > Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. > I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. > I will check with the inria lawyer first. > > Stef > > > >> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. >> It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. >> Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation! >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> >> >> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> >>> I support it, too. >>> >>> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) >>> >>> So, I suggest this: >>> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). >>> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >>> >>>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin >>>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. >>>> >>>> Stephan Eggermont >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Every thing has its own flow" >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] It makes my toes curl

by Marcus Denker

On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:03, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 10 February 2014 11:00, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > > dear Smalltalk promoters, > I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture. > > I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties. > > > > So this stuff: > Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by > "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? > > > I do agree, that using phrasing "lost money" was inappropriate. Yes, you are right. I am very sorry… when discussing ESUG things like the conference I got used to use this term, which might be wrong. “So the low scenario is XX? What if even less come? How much would we lose? Could we afford it (even if extremely unlikely)?” Marcus

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] It makes my toes curl

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 February 2014 11:00, Reinout Heeck <reinout(a)soops.nl> wrote: > > dear Smalltalk promoters, > I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture. > > I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about > anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties. > > > > So this stuff: > >> Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by >> "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical? >> > > I do agree, that using phrasing "lost money" was inappropriate. ESUG is a non-profit organization and such phrasing simply cannot be applied to indicate that it was spent more money than it received. If it would be a commercial organization, such phrasing would be totally adequate. That is my only issue concerning current flame-out. I want to ask ESUG board members to not use such phrasing anymore, because they are inadequate. But i am far from calling that "blatantly unethical behavior". After all, ESUG mission is about 'losing' all the money they can get from sponsors to help promoting smalltalk. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Marcus Denker

On 10 Feb 2014, at 16:35, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > So, if i understood correctly, > ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. > Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. > > Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? > Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? > > I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. > We even *decided* to spend more money, because people told us it would be unfair if not (and they where right). I just remembered the discussion, not that we even solved that already last year. The whole discussion started because of my mail and I am kicking myself for having send it in the first place: THERE WAS NO PROBLEM LAST YEAR. We just need to think about what to do this year, this is what I wanted to say in the original mail, because what we did last year we could do last year but not again. Now this mail will not help anything and just add to the mess… I am really sorry for having started the whole discussion. (instead of a relaxing weekend to be productive I am now an unproductive mess after a weekend without sleep… not good). Marcus

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Igor Stasenko

So, if i understood correctly, ESUG spent more money last year running GSoC than it received from Google. Which literally means ESUG budget lost some money. Shall any students/mentors/ESUG affiliates be enraged about that fact? Or did smalltalk community in general lost because of that? I may be wrong (because sure thing i am biased asshole), but as to me both answers will be 'no'. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

On 10 Feb 2014, at 13:28, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > On 2/10/14 4:24 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. > > Now now, let's not get the flames stoked again :). Sorry andres but I’m personally attack and I do not even know why and for what. We are attacked because the board thought that this is better to pay 5000 $ students so that they get the same as GSOC ones. This is really that. I cannot believe it. And I can tell you that I do not want to get anything to do with GSOC (I will redraw my topics) and Janko. Stef > > Andres. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future. Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don’t. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first. Stef > I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. > It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. > Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation! > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > > On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> I support it, too. >> >> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :) >> >> So, I suggest this: >> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). >> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private. >> >> Esteban >> >> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> >>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin >>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation. >>> >>> Stephan Eggermont >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Feb. 10, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Stéphane Ducasse

On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:57, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > >> Janko CAN YOU STOP! >> >> "blatantly unethical behavior” >> Really >> >> Stef > > Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story > about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? What? What are you talking about? Janko can you stop to systematically insult me because you are. Stef > > Janko > >>> Phil, > >>> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >>> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >>> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >>> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. > >>> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >>> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >>> murky waters more and more. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Janko >>> >>> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be >>> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>: >>>> Guys, >>>> >>>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>>> the kindergarten. >>>> >>>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>>> >>>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>>> >>>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >>>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> >>>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Janko, >>>> >>>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>>> >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si> >>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>>> misguided. >>>> >>>> Facts namely are: >>>> >>>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>>> while >>>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>>> report >>>> back to GSoC mentors, >>>> >>>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>>> pool for >>>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>>> >>>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>>> >>>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> 13.000 USD >>>> >>>> Expenses: >>>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>>> >>>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>>> >>>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>>> loose any >>>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>>> >>>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>>> apologize to >>>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>>> >>>> Janko >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>>> [2] >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>>> [3] >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>>> >>>> >>>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> ------------ >>>>> FACTS >>>>> >>>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>>> projects in 2013. >>>>> >>>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>>> by Google. >>>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>>> >>>>> All in all we paid: >>>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>>> GSOC) each >>>>> projects >>>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>>> >>>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>>> >>>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>>> sponsorized 3. >>>>> >>>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>>> mentor >>>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>>> recognizes ESUG >>>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>>> >>>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>>> >>>>> ------------ >>>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>>> >>>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>>> *own* time >>>>> and it takes a lot! >>>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>>> falvors!) >>>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>>> >>>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>>> I can do errors too. >>>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>>> >>>>> I cannot admit that: >>>>> >>>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>>> directed >>>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>>> hide or >>>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>>> >>>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>>> have done a >>>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>>> ME for >>>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>>> >>>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>>> yesterday and I >>>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>>> problems together >>>>> if any. >>>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>>> >>>>> #Luc >>>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>>> in bad mood > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

Feb. 10, 2014