February 2014 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC

by Bert Freudenberg

On 11.02.2014, at 17:14, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto: >> >> Nothing philosophical here. >> Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new >> language. >> Different syntax, different semantics. >> The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any >> difference. >> There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. >> Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to >> run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? > > I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. > > If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. > > Paolo How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak? - Bert -

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC

by Nowak, Helge

+1 or would anybody seriously want to deny a Java/C#/Ruby/PHP/Cobol/youNameIt-to-Smalltalk converter written in Smalltalk from GSoC? Helge -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Paolo Bonzini Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Februar 2014 17:14 An: Igor Stasenko; Göran Krampe Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak Betreff: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto: > > Nothing philosophical here. > Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new > language. > Different syntax, different semantics. > The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any > difference. > There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. > Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to > run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 11, 2014

Smalltalk dialects and GSoC

by Paolo Bonzini

Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto: > > Nothing philosophical here. > Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new > language. > Different syntax, different semantics. > The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any > difference. > There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. > Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to > run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Igor Stasenko

On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se> wrote: > Hi Igor and all! > > On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > [SNIP] > > Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, >> we even share the VM! >> >> And I am not sure people understand how important this has been >> for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has >> been done through Newspeakish money, right? >> >> >> Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I >> first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form >> there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create >> Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. >> In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at >> Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement >> systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no >> Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed >> or reliable. >> >> I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community >> will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is >> definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. >> >> >> I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not >> (clearly it is). >> The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. >> (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). >> So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run >> and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk >> projects under ESUG umbrella? >> > > Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular > incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make > that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a > family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. > > Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - > hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and > make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! > > And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have > globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? > > And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak > - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger > than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a > Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which > claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! > > Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just > getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :) > > Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics. The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? And let me be clear: i am not against Newspeak or any other language or person(s) who invested a lot into it and keep investing. They are doing good things in exploring and pushing forward original ideas and enriching our computing world. But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 11, 2014

SmalltalkHub is back online!

by Nicolas Petton

The server is accessible again! Cheers, Nico -- Nicolas Petton http://nicolas-petton.fr

Feb. 11, 2014

[SmalltalkHub down] The server hosting SmalltalkHub at Inria is not responding

by Nicolas Petton

Hi guys, The server hosting SmalltalkHub at Inria is not responding. SmalltalkHub is therefore down. I contacted the Inria server admins to learn more about this incident, without success for now. I'll do my best to put it back online as soon as possible! Cheers, Nico -- Nicolas Petton http://nicolas-petton.fr

Feb. 11, 2014

[GSoC 2014] Announcing Nicolas Petton as co-admin

by Paolo Bonzini

I'm pleased to announce that Nicolas Petton will be helping me with administration of the GSoC. As you may know, Nicolas is the lead developer of Amber Smalltalk and the Iliad web framework. He has worked with many other Smalltalk dialects in the past, including GNU Smalltalk and Pharo. In the interest of transparency, I will mention that: - I had previously asked Damien Cassou, but he preferred to have someone more neutral than an ESUG board member. It is interesting that I had picked him *exactly* because he was an ESUG board member. :) - Nico will be submitting project ideas for Amber and he might thus serve as a mentor too (I won't). Nevertheless, I'm sure that the selection process will be as transparent as possible. Thanks, Paolo

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Göran Krampe

Hi Igor and all! On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP] > Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, > we even share the VM! > > And I am not sure people understand how important this has been > for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has > been done through Newspeakish money, right? > > > Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I > first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form > there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create > Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. > In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at > Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement > systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no > Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed > or reliable. > > I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community > will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is > definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. > > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not > (clearly it is). > The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. > (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). > So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run > and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk > projects under ESUG umbrella? Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :) > If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, > who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;) regards, Göran PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject.

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

by Richard Sargent

Janko, You have already thrown a brick. I don't understand your refusal to throw stones. Who is being accused of doing what? Spell it out for us. Sent from my Samsung S III -------- Original message -------- From: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> Date: 2014/02/10 02:57 (GMT-08:00) To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com Cc: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>,Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org>,The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Subject: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > Janko CAN YOU STOP! > > "blatantly unethical behavior” > Really > > Stef Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? Janko >> Phil, >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. >> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >> murky waters more and more. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be >> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>: >>> Guys, >>> >>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>> the kindergarten. >>> >>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>> >>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>> >>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Janko, >>> >>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si> >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>> misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>> while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>> report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>> pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>> loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>> apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FACTS >>>> >>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>> projects in 2013. >>>> >>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>> by Google. >>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>> >>>> All in all we paid: >>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>> GSOC) each >>>> projects >>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>> >>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>> >>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>> sponsorized 3. >>>> >>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>> mentor >>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>> recognizes ESUG >>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>> >>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>> >>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>> *own* time >>>> and it takes a lot! >>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>> falvors!) >>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>> >>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>> I can do errors too. >>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>> >>>> I cannot admit that: >>>> >>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>> directed >>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>> hide or >>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>> >>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>> have done a >>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>> ME for >>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>> >>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>> yesterday and I >>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>> >>>> >>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>> problems together >>>> if any. >>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>> >>>> #Luc >>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>> in bad mood -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Feb. 11, 2014

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by Dennis Schetinin

:) Sorry, not very serious but still: "Newspeak is a new programming language *in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk*" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/] "Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk-inspired environment*" [http://www.pharo-project.org/home] Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only "Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired? According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then Pharo :) And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to say... But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community. -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > > > > On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All, >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se> wrote: >> >>> Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers! >>> >>> Cross-posting continues... >>> >>> >>> On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote: >>> >>>> I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. >>>> >>> >>> Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here) >>> >>> I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was >>>> *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is >>>> >>>> sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a >>>> different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be >>>> inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. >>>> >>> >>> Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even >>> share the VM! >>> >>> And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us >>> Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through >>> Newspeakish money, right? >>> >> >> Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first >> worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now >> familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back >> at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has >> only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence >> we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without >> Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be >> nearly as developed or reliable. >> >> I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will >> consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a >> blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. >> >> > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not > (clearly it is). > The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. > (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). > So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run > and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk > projects under ESUG umbrella? > > If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, > who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. > > > > >> >>> [SNIP] >>> >>> I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the >>>> recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have >>>> done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community >>>> (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. >>>> >>> >>> Cool! >>> >>> The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming >>> all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities >>> (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. >>> >>> This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants >>> have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also >>> shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can >>> really... make a mess :) >>> >>> 3 timesRepeat: [ >>> If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] >>> >>> regards, Göran >>> >>> PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest >>> his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move >>> on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to >>> hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha! >> >> >> Amen! >> Eliot >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > > >

Feb. 11, 2014