April 2013 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Matthias Springer

>> In my opinion, one of the biggest advantages of Amber is that you don't need >> any particular web server or backend. A web browser is everything you need >> and the whole Smalltalk VM is running in the web browser (it's also much >> easier to set up). I'm also wondering whether remote rendering is fast >> enough. You need to talk to the server on every event (mouse click, mouse >> move (this is really expensive), keyboard, ...) and every primitive you >> render must be sent to the client. > yes, and in that regard, http://gsoc2013.esug.org/projects/athens-html5-canvas > is way better alternative. > > OK, I'm getting the feeling that it's probably best to implement a proper HTML Canvas rendering engine (Athens) first and build a Morphic(-like) framework (e.g. the morphs from Cuis) on top of that afterwards. Having a good architecture is more important to me than getting results as fast as possible. -- Matthias Springer * me(a)matthiasspringer.de * +49-1577-3814255 Student B.Sc. IT-Systems Engineering (Hasso-Plattner-Institut) Stahnsdorfer Straße 144c, 14482 Potsdam

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Igor Stasenko

On 28 April 2013 16:50, Matthias Springer <me(a)matthiasspringer.de> wrote: > Hi Juan, > > >> >> Morphic 3 is a reimplementation of Squeak Morphic with these fundamental >> changes: >> - Drawing is vector graphics (like HTML5 Canvas and SVG) >> - Each morph defines a local coordinate system >> - Coordinates are float, and not tied to Display coordinates >> - Code is simplified and easier to understand >> The new drawing engine will be published this year (MIT license). The rest >> of the work is in the Morphs themselves, and is done incrementally in the >> Cuis project. This means that the latest Cuis default and only GUI is always >> the most current state of this work. Right now, in Cuis, all morphs are >> specified in local float coordinates, and the Morphic code is much smaller >> and easier to understand that in other Squeak variants. > > So Morphic3 is the rendering/drawing engine and Cuis provides the morphs on > top of Morphic3? > > >> >> If I understand this correctly, this means not using Canvas for drawing >> graphics (like LivelyKernel and morphic.js do), but using the html rendering >> in the browser (more like Seaside, Iliad and and Aida). This approach has >> pros and cons, but to me, it essencially means it is not a real Morphic. A >> fundamental feature of Morphic is that the look and behavior of morphs is >> completely done in Smalltalk, and therefore, only limited by what the >> Display can show. This means not using any external widgets library (like >> html widgets, or qt, or native OS widgets, etc). In Morphic, it is possible >> to do stuff like the EnvelopeEditorMorph, and what you see in LivelyKernel >> and morphic.js. In html, we are limited to what the browsers provide. > > I talked with several people about this and I think it is indeed better and > cleaner to use an HTML canvas for drawing. Putting divs together with > position:absolute - that's what I'm currently doing - is really ugly. My > plans for the next days are to experiment with HTML canvas and try to shift > all rendering to the canvas. > >> >> This means that you want the real Morphic power and flexibility. Then the >> strategy would be to start by making a Morphic World that can host the most >> basic morphs, maybe not unlike what morphic.js is doing, but in Smalltalk >> (Amber). If you follow this path, the next question is whether to use global >> coordinates (like Squeak, Pharo and other derivatives, except Cuis, and like >> morphic.js) or local coordinates (like LivelyKernel, Self and Cuis). > > Sounds like a plan. My initial motivation was to get an existing Pharo > application running in Amber without changing too much code. But I'd also be > willing to change that application in order to get a better Morphic > implementation. > > I didn't think about coordinate systems yet. In my current implementation > the top, left corner of a window is always 0@0 regardless of where the > window is located. That's the idea of local coordinates, right? > > >> If you consider doing a remote, web based canvas for Cuis / Morphic 3 >> servers, I would be delighted to be your mentor, as your work would be >> closely related to mine. Besides, I believe this would be the easiest way to >> enable fully Morphic webapps in Smalltalk. > > In my opinion, one of the biggest advantages of Amber is that you don't need > any particular web server or backend. A web browser is everything you need > and the whole Smalltalk VM is running in the web browser (it's also much > easier to set up). I'm also wondering whether remote rendering is fast > enough. You need to talk to the server on every event (mouse click, mouse > move (this is really expensive), keyboard, ...) and every primitive you > render must be sent to the client. yes, and in that regard, http://gsoc2013.esug.org/projects/athens-html5-canvas is way better alternative. > >> >> If you do a SVG Morphic for Amber, similar to morphic.js, I could also >> help. This would mean that a longer term project would be needed to bring it >> to the point of real compatibility with Squeak / Pharo / Cuis. > > This is more or less what I had in mind, probably by drawing morphs onto an > HTML canvas. Maybe we can share code between Cuis and Amber for the actual > morphs, once I have implemented the drawing/rendering component. It should > be sufficient to implement the Morphic3 interface that is used by Cuis and I > can render all Cuis morphs from then on, right? > > Best regards, > Matthias > > > -- > Matthias Springer * me(a)matthiasspringer.de * +49-1577-3814255 > Student B.Sc. IT-Systems Engineering (Hasso-Plattner-Institut) > Stahnsdorfer Straße 144c, 14482 Potsdam > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Matthias Springer

Hi Juan, > > Morphic 3 is a reimplementation of Squeak Morphic with these > fundamental changes: > - Drawing is vector graphics (like HTML5 Canvas and SVG) > - Each morph defines a local coordinate system > - Coordinates are float, and not tied to Display coordinates > - Code is simplified and easier to understand > The new drawing engine will be published this year (MIT license). The > rest of the work is in the Morphs themselves, and is done > incrementally in the Cuis project. This means that the latest Cuis > default and only GUI is always the most current state of this work. > Right now, in Cuis, all morphs are specified in local float > coordinates, and the Morphic code is much smaller and easier to > understand that in other Squeak variants. So Morphic3 is the rendering/drawing engine and Cuis provides the morphs on top of Morphic3? > > If I understand this correctly, this means not using Canvas for > drawing graphics (like LivelyKernel and morphic.js do), but using the > html rendering in the browser (more like Seaside, Iliad and and Aida). > This approach has pros and cons, but to me, it essencially means it is > not a real Morphic. A fundamental feature of Morphic is that the look > and behavior of morphs is completely done in Smalltalk, and therefore, > only limited by what the Display can show. This means not using any > external widgets library (like html widgets, or qt, or native OS > widgets, etc). In Morphic, it is possible to do stuff like the > EnvelopeEditorMorph, and what you see in LivelyKernel and morphic.js. > In html, we are limited to what the browsers provide. I talked with several people about this and I think it is indeed better and cleaner to use an HTML canvas for drawing. Putting divs together with position:absolute - that's what I'm currently doing - is really ugly. My plans for the next days are to experiment with HTML canvas and try to shift all rendering to the canvas. > > This means that you want the real Morphic power and flexibility. Then > the strategy would be to start by making a Morphic World that can host > the most basic morphs, maybe not unlike what morphic.js is doing, but > in Smalltalk (Amber). If you follow this path, the next question is > whether to use global coordinates (like Squeak, Pharo and other > derivatives, except Cuis, and like morphic.js) or local coordinates > (like LivelyKernel, Self and Cuis). Sounds like a plan. My initial motivation was to get an existing Pharo application running in Amber without changing too much code. But I'd also be willing to change that application in order to get a better Morphic implementation. I didn't think about coordinate systems yet. In my current implementation the top, left corner of a window is always 0@0 regardless of where the window is located. That's the idea of local coordinates, right? > If you consider doing a remote, web based canvas for Cuis / Morphic 3 > servers, I would be delighted to be your mentor, as your work would be > closely related to mine. Besides, I believe this would be the easiest > way to enable fully Morphic webapps in Smalltalk. In my opinion, one of the biggest advantages of Amber is that you don't need any particular web server or backend. A web browser is everything you need and the whole Smalltalk VM is running in the web browser (it's also much easier to set up). I'm also wondering whether remote rendering is fast enough. You need to talk to the server on every event (mouse click, mouse move (this is really expensive), keyboard, ...) and every primitive you render must be sent to the client. > > If you do a SVG Morphic for Amber, similar to morphic.js, I could also > help. This would mean that a longer term project would be needed to > bring it to the point of real compatibility with Squeak / Pharo / Cuis. This is more or less what I had in mind, probably by drawing morphs onto an HTML canvas. Maybe we can share code between Cuis and Amber for the actual morphs, once I have implemented the drawing/rendering component. It should be sufficient to implement the Morphic3 interface that is used by Cuis and I can render all Cuis morphs from then on, right? Best regards, Matthias -- Matthias Springer * me(a)matthiasspringer.de * +49-1577-3814255 Student B.Sc. IT-Systems Engineering (Hasso-Plattner-Institut) Stahnsdorfer Straße 144c, 14482 Potsdam

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Juan Vuletich (mail lists)

Hi Sean, Quoting "Sean P. DeNigris" <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: > Matthias Springer wrote >> Regardless of whether you would be willing to participate as a mentor, >> I'd like to know if this project is something you're interested in and >> what features are most important for you. > > This is a /fantastic/ proposal. I am extremely interested in having the > ability to write a non-standard Morphic UI and have it show up in a webpage > without any extra work. Please see my response to Matthias' original message. The possibility of writing non-standard Morphic UIs and running them in Amber would depend on the approach taken. I don't see it possible if doing it in html. Something closer to morphic.js and Lively Kernel would be needed. Besides, the best (and esiest) way to do what you want is what I suggest to Matthias: Use a Smalltalk Morphic server (better yet if it is Cuis / Morphic 3), and a remote Amber morphic canvas. Something like a Morphic specific VNC client done in Amber + Canvas. > In fact, that would be amazing! I'm also interested > in your idea for another important reason... Morphic is a mess!! What would > be great is if you focus on the required behavior without copying too much > of the implementation details. In this way, hopefully, we could backport > your clean implementation into Morphic and benefit from fresh eyes. I would > be happy to mentor as I'm more familiar with Morphic than I ever wanted to > be ;) But what would be /great/ is if you could hook up with Juan Vuletich > and pitch it to him. He did a rewrite of Morphic a while back and would be > an invaluable resource. Even if he can consult, it would be a huge help. I'd be really happy to help. To what extent I can do it depends on the chosen path. The closer Matthias goes to my preferred path, the more I can help :) > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/GSoC-Project-Proposal-Morphic-for-Amber-Looking-for-m… > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > Cheers, Juan Vuletich

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Juan Vuletich (mail lists)

Hi Matthias, My name is Juan Vuletich, and I lead the development of Cuis Smalltalk and Morphic 3. I am happy to see any and all initiatives and efforts to advance the Smalltalk world. Let's see how your project matches with what I'm doing. I'll sketch briefly my projects and their state. Cuis is a fork of Squeak (like Pharo, Etoys, Scratch, Tweak, OpenCobalt, OpenQwaq, and others). The main objective that sets Cuis apart from other Squeak variants, is to enable and ease evolution as the top priority. For this, the strategy is to simplify the code as much as possible, so it becomes easier to understand. Right now, in lines of code, Cuis is about 1/3 the size of Squeak or Pharo. Cuis MIT license, and freely available. It is a pretty mature and solid Smalltalk environment, used for several commercial and non-commercial projects. I started Cuis to make Morphic 3 possible: Morphic 3 is a reimplementation of Squeak Morphic with these fundamental changes: - Drawing is vector graphics (like HTML5 Canvas and SVG) - Each morph defines a local coordinate system - Coordinates are float, and not tied to Display coordinates - Code is simplified and easier to understand The new drawing engine will be published this year (MIT license). The rest of the work is in the Morphs themselves, and is done incrementally in the Cuis project. This means that the latest Cuis default and only GUI is always the most current state of this work. Right now, in Cuis, all morphs are specified in local float coordinates, and the Morphic code is much smaller and easier to understand that in other Squeak variants. I've been thinking for some time on doing something to enable Cuis powered web servers running Morphic applications that are rendered in the client web browser. This has indeed some overlap with what you want to do. I would be delighted if you could work on this. But this is not exactly what you are proposing, so I'll comment inline below (please continue reading): Quoting Matthias Springer <me(a)matthiasspringer.de>: > Hi Smalltalkers, > ... > Amber is a Smalltalk implementation running in a web browser. It is > written in JavaScript. Amber provides some basic Smalltalk classes > and methods. It is also possible to render HTML code in a > Seaside-like way. But in contrast to Seaside, Amber has the > advantage that the whole Smalltalk VM runs inside the browser. Code > written in Amber can be automatically filed out to the hard disk > (using a NodeJS server running in the background). Good. Amber looks like the perfect environment to do web-based Smalltalk stuff. > My proposal is to reimplement parts of the Morphic framework in > Amber. This would have several advantages. > > ...(abridged)... > > My vision is to provide a fully-featured Smalltalk programming > environment running in the browser that provides all features that > are offered by Squeak/Pharo (class browsers, Monticello, ...). > ...(abridged)... > > Here's some technical stuff about how my current implementation works. > - All morphs need to be rendered as HTML DOM elements. > - Morphs are rendered using "HTMLCanvas" and "Widget", both classes > are provided by Amber. > - Morphs are rendered inside a div container, submorphs can be added > by adding the submorph's div container to the owner's div container > and setting its position and so on. > - Not all HTML tags can be reused. For instance, the HTML text > box/text area does not support text with different text formats > (color, emphasis, ...). I had to reimplement text areas for editable > "TextMoprh"s with DOM manipulation. If I understand this correctly, this means not using Canvas for drawing graphics (like LivelyKernel and morphic.js do), but using the html rendering in the browser (more like Seaside, Iliad and and Aida). This approach has pros and cons, but to me, it essencially means it is not a real Morphic. A fundamental feature of Morphic is that the look and behavior of morphs is completely done in Smalltalk, and therefore, only limited by what the Display can show. This means not using any external widgets library (like html widgets, or qt, or native OS widgets, etc). In Morphic, it is possible to do stuff like the EnvelopeEditorMorph, and what you see in LivelyKernel and morphic.js. In html, we are limited to what the browsers provide. > > ...(abridged)... > > A proposal on how to get started and structure the project. > - 1st week: think about architecture (how to do the rendering, ...), > class structures (e.g. which Morph classes are needed) and choose > some existing Squeak/Pharo applications that use an > important/representative subset of Morphic. This means that you want the real Morphic power and flexibility. Then the strategy would be to start by making a Morphic World that can host the most basic morphs, maybe not unlike what morphic.js is doing, but in Smalltalk (Amber). If you follow this path, the next question is whether to use global coordinates (like Squeak, Pharo and other derivatives, except Cuis, and like morphic.js) or local coordinates (like LivelyKernel, Self and Cuis). Take a look at http://forum.world.st/How-to-code-to-move-a-morph-td3937438.html where some experiments with Amber and morphic.js are discussed. If you follow the gobal coordinates path, compatibility with Squeak and Pharo will be easier. If you follow the local coordinates path, compatibility with Cuis and Morphic 3 will be easier. If you consider doing a remote, web based canvas for Cuis / Morphic 3 servers, I would be delighted to be your mentor, as your work would be closely related to mine. Besides, I believe this would be the easiest way to enable fully Morphic webapps in Smalltalk. If you do a SVG Morphic for Amber, similar to morphic.js, I could also help. This would mean that a longer term project would be needed to bring it to the point of real compatibility with Squeak / Pharo / Cuis. If you do an html based implementation, compatibility with Squeak / Pharo would be limited. In this case I could help a bit, but as this would go closer to Seaside/Aida/Iliad than to Morphic, my help would be limited. I tried to be objective when comparing options, but let me say now that I think the Cuis / Morphic 3 way is the best, and that I want to convince you to follow it! > > ...(abridged)... > > I'm looking for a mentor for the GSoC 2013. Ideally, the mentor has > a good understanding of the Morphic framework and maybe even HTML, > JavaScript and CSS (but I'm already quite familiar with this). > > Best regards, > Matthias Springer > > -- > Matthias Springer * me(a)matthiasspringer.de * +49-1577-3814255 > Student B.Sc. IT-Systems Engineering (Hasso-Plattner-Institut) > Stahnsdorfer Straße 144c, 14482 Potsdam > > > Cheers, Juan Vuletich

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Integrated Chat System

by Guillermo Polito

Nico, there is already an argentinian student who proposed a project to work on a Jabber Client/Server. The project is here http://gsoc2013.esug.org/projects#h-45 But, this project does not have a mentor. Maybe you can join and both projects merged? :) Guille On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Paez <nicopaez(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have an idea for a project. Let my explain it: > > *Context / Business need* > I teach OOP at the university with Pharo. Every week our students have to > solve some assignments programming with Pharo. We would like to have an > integrated chat system into Pharo in order to be able to assist our > students when they are working on the assignments. > > *Vision* > I imagine this chat to allow the exchange of text but it should also allow > to send "a class or a category" so the teacher (or other student) can > analyse/reproduce a situation/error. Even more, it could use fuel to > serialize the error and share it. > From the implementation point of view I image this like a client-server > system. Each subject/institution could have its own server, then the > students/teacher, open Pharo, start the chat client and connect to the > selected server. > > > *What do you think? * > > If there is a student interested in this I could be the mentor. > > Regards, > > Saludos! > NicoPaez <http://nicopaez.wordpress.com/> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

April 28, 2013

GSoC Project Proposal: Integrated Chat System

by Nicolás Paez

Hi everyone, I have an idea for a project. Let my explain it: *Context / Business need* I teach OOP at the university with Pharo. Every week our students have to solve some assignments programming with Pharo. We would like to have an integrated chat system into Pharo in order to be able to assist our students when they are working on the assignments. *Vision* I imagine this chat to allow the exchange of text but it should also allow to send "a class or a category" so the teacher (or other student) can analyse/reproduce a situation/error. Even more, it could use fuel to serialize the error and share it. >From the implementation point of view I image this like a client-server system. Each subject/institution could have its own server, then the students/teacher, open Pharo, start the chat client and connect to the selected server. *What do you think? * If there is a student interested in this I could be the mentor. Regards, Saludos! NicoPaez <http://nicopaez.wordpress.com/>

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Bert Freudenberg

On 2013-04-27, at 16:47, "Sean P. DeNigris" <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Matthias Springer wrote >> Regardless of whether you would be willing to participate as a mentor, >> I'd like to know if this project is something you're interested in and >> what features are most important for you. Great proposal indeed! I see you mention Lively Kernel as "related". There is also Jens Mönig's Morphic implementation: http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=34 which is used in Snap (a Scratch variant): http://snap.berkeley.edu/snapsource/snap.html And big kudos to Sean for volunteering to mentor! - Bert - > This is a /fantastic/ proposal. I am extremely interested in having the > ability to write a non-standard Morphic UI and have it show up in a webpage > without any extra work. In fact, that would be amazing! I'm also interested > in your idea for another important reason... Morphic is a mess!! What would > be great is if you focus on the required behavior without copying too much > of the implementation details. In this way, hopefully, we could backport > your clean implementation into Morphic and benefit from fresh eyes. I would > be happy to mentor as I'm more familiar with Morphic than I ever wanted to > be ;) But what would be /great/ is if you could hook up with Juan Vuletich > and pitch it to him. He did a rewrite of Morphic a while back and would be > an invaluable resource. Even if he can consult, it would be a huge help. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > --

April 28, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Matthias Springer

Hi Sean, I'm happy to hear that! I also took a look at Juan Vuletich's Morphic3 Project (http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/Morphic3-201006.html) I think he did not (re)implement Morphic yet but implemented algorithms for high-quality rendering (e.g. anti-aliasing) so far. But I'll ask him if he's interested in this project. Best regards, Matthias Am 27.04.2013 16:47, schrieb Sean P. DeNigris: > Matthias Springer wrote >> Regardless of whether you would be willing to participate as a mentor, >> I'd like to know if this project is something you're interested in and >> what features are most important for you. > This is a /fantastic/ proposal. I am extremely interested in having the > ability to write a non-standard Morphic UI and have it show up in a webpage > without any extra work. In fact, that would be amazing! I'm also interested > in your idea for another important reason... Morphic is a mess!! What would > be great is if you focus on the required behavior without copying too much > of the implementation details. In this way, hopefully, we could backport > your clean implementation into Morphic and benefit from fresh eyes. I would > be happy to mentor as I'm more familiar with Morphic than I ever wanted to > be ;) But what would be /great/ is if you could hook up with Juan Vuletich > and pitch it to him. He did a rewrite of Morphic a while back and would be > an invaluable resource. Even if he can consult, it would be a huge help. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/GSoC-Project-Proposal-Morphic-for-Amber-Looking-for-m… > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- Matthias Springer * me(a)matthiasspringer.de * +49-1577-3814255 Student B.Sc. IT-Systems Engineering (Hasso-Plattner-Institut) Stahnsdorfer Straße 144c, 14482 Potsdam

April 27, 2013

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Project Proposal: Morphic for Amber, Looking for mentor

by Sean P. DeNigris

Matthias Springer wrote > Regardless of whether you would be willing to participate as a mentor, > I'd like to know if this project is something you're interested in and > what features are most important for you. This is a /fantastic/ proposal. I am extremely interested in having the ability to write a non-standard Morphic UI and have it show up in a webpage without any extra work. In fact, that would be amazing! I'm also interested in your idea for another important reason... Morphic is a mess!! What would be great is if you focus on the required behavior without copying too much of the implementation details. In this way, hopefully, we could backport your clean implementation into Morphic and benefit from fresh eyes. I would be happy to mentor as I'm more familiar with Morphic than I ever wanted to be ;) But what would be /great/ is if you could hook up with Juan Vuletich and pitch it to him. He did a rewrite of Morphic a while back and would be an invaluable resource. Even if he can consult, it would be a huge help. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/GSoC-Project-Proposal-Morphic-for-Amber-Looking-for-m… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 27, 2013