July 2012 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by jdelgado＠lsi.upc.edu

Well, I just want to make some points clear, and I am going to do that politely, which is what nettiquette demands, though that is not the way I naturally react to infinite nonsensical threads in my inbox. >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> (...) >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo Just paying a little bit of attention should make you clear that a large part of our work is being developed with Squeak, from teaching at the university (however, this is going to change soon in favour of Pharo, for reasons that have *nothing* to do with ESUG) to maintaining and updating our S4A (Scratch for Arduino). Also, our Fluidinfo software was developed using Squeak. The Smalltalk Tutor presented at ESUG'11 was developed using Pharo and GNU Smalltalk. Thus, we have never used a Smalltalk that is not open source, but saying that we use only Pharo is just wrong. Maybe the board (and a whole lot of people) uses mainly Pharo, but that is probably because they use whatever they want to use and somehow Pharo is what they think is the best tool for their project. And if someone wants support from ESUG, probably the best way to get it is asking for it. I do not remember how many times ESUG has rejected to offer support to any Smalltalk initiative (maybe zero?). In fact, ESUG itself has offered support to local groups *before* the groups asked for it. Bests, Jordi

July 5, 2012

Old Smalltalk Magazines on offer - cost of postage only

by David Pennington

Hi everyone. Way back in the 1990s there were two publications floating around: Doug Shaker used to run 'The Smalltalk Store' and produced some nice hard copy magazines called 'The Smalltalk Gazette' I have three of these - Vol 2 Issue 1 and Volume 3 Issue 1 & 2. - May 1995, March 1996 and 'Summer' 1996 I have 8 copies of 'The Smalltalk Report' - as follows: Feb. 1992 Vol.1 No.5 Sep. 1994 Vol. 4 No. 1 March - April 1995 Vol.4 No. 4 (Photocopy) Feb. 1995 Vol. 4 No.5 May 1995 Vol 4 No. 7 July/August 1995 Vol.4 No. 9 Feb. 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 March - April 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 (i know this is a duplication in date but it is a different magazine). These have articles by the likes of Kent Beck, Alan Knight and Jay Almarode. These are available to the first one to request them: ***** However, together they weight 1.2 kilos so postage will be quite expensive and I must ask the taker to pay that. UK £6.00, Europe, £9.00 and Rest of the world £17.00 (these are actual Royal Mail small packet charges). I would need paying by Paypal but if you don't have a Paypal account, you can still use their service to pay by credit card on a one off basis. I would send you an invoice which makes it easier. Private e-mail to david@totallyobjects will secure. DavidESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> David Pennington Totally Objects The Smalltalk Specialists

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Steven Kelly

I think there's a misunderstanding about what "conflict of interest" means. It doesn't mean that person is bad. It doesn't mean they are abusing their power. It doesn't mean they would get money through it. All it means is that they have an interest in the matter at hand, in addition to their role on the board. In academic circles, often you can't review a paper if you have been a co-author with one of its authors in the last N years. That's a similar kind of thing - nobody's saying that because of that, you'd accept the paper, or would be incapable of being objective, or the paper's authors would pay you(!). It's just agreed that it's better if you don't review it. One of the reasons why people with "conflicts of interest" don't get to vote or take part in the discussion, is that people with an extra interest are likely to get annoyed with the discussion. That's bad for the community - those people may be demotivated, and the rest may feel less trust in their board. In any case, as far as I understand it, the ESUG board makes decisions about sponsorship - not the ESUG membership. They've heard our opinions, both for and against, and they can go ahead and make their decision. I for one will support them, whatever they decide. Not because as individuals they've done so much for Smalltalk, for so little reward, but because they're smart people who we've trusted to make ESUG decisions on our behalf. All the best, Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Stasenko [mailto:siguctua@gmail.com] > Sent: 5. heinäkuuta 2012 12:22 > To: Steven Kelly; ESUG Mailing list > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: > >> > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo > >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo > >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo > >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo > >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo > >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving > most hits > > > > Just one little note: > AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo. > Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny. > I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only > with conflict here, but i am not a member of board, > and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of > that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision. > > As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is > consistent with that.. or i miss something? > > If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct > personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to > sponsor Pharo? > They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life, > which they would rather spend with their family? > > > As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there > other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better > promoting smalltalk > than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher > priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision > should and must be argued. > But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold > money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission.. > > I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such > decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else > than: promoting smalltalk. > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to > mention potential conflicts of interest. > > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list > may be a little tense :). > > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully > nobody gets upset about it. > > > > Go Smalltalk! > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Alexandre Bergel

> Being accused of conflicting interest is not very nice to hear, so please those of you concerned stay above that and with us. Well, this is something that should be avoided. But again, the community is so small, that is hard to avoid. We almost have permanent interest conflict in the research track of esug. > I never used Pharo, But If the ESUG board decided to sponsor it, than I just respect their choice. I hardly see how supporting Pharo can be seen as unfair. Improving Pharo will help the whole Smalltalk community. It looks like clear to me. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits > Just one little note: AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo. Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny. I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only with conflict here, but i am not a member of board, and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision. As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is consistent with that.. or i miss something? If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to sponsor Pharo? They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life, which they would rather spend with their family? As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better promoting smalltalk than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision should and must be argued. But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission.. I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else than: promoting smalltalk. > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it. > > Go Smalltalk! > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Serge Stinckwich

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >> >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits Yes, I'm mostly involved in Pharo. I'm in board but not really active at the moment because I'm living in Asia where I do some Smalltalk advocacies in the vietnamese, korean and japanese communities. > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). The board is aware of these problems and we are trying to take care of all Smalltalk communities if there need some support. Look at our promotion program here: http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Promotion If you need some support for your program or to develop a new community, just ask. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

July 5, 2012

update on the consortium poll

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi pharoers Here is so far the state of replies I compiled. If I miss you or misclassified tell me. By end of July I will build a case to ask for INRIA support. So I will refresh this list and group mails to build a convincing case. Pharo2.0 is going in the right direction. With a mini core, vector graphics, ssh, it is starting to be a nice platform for new challenges. Thanks you all for your trust. Stef So far 4000 gold 8000 silver 5000 bronze 500 sponsor 2500 individual plus 480 individual -------------------- 20480 Euros Gold (4000) RMOD 4000 Silver (2000) 2Denker http://www.Synectique.eu Sanders Cameron company 2Rivers 8000 Bronze (1000) Andy bunnett company Eggermont company MAD-Environment www.FinWorks.biz netStyle.ch 5000 Sponsors (500) Caeasar Systems (May be IMUS)?? 500 Indivudual golden (100) Stephane Ducasse Marcus Denker Schmiedl Miguel Coba Alexandre Bergel Krish Brodbeck (may be bronze) Goran Vasic Guillermo Polito Norbert Harlt Mark Smith Lorenzo schiavina Daniel Galdames Leandro Caniglia Francois Stephany Sean De Nigris John O'Keefe Tudor Girba Luc Fabresse Florent Arrignon Lawrence Trutter Sabine Knofel Yann Monclair Henrik Johanssen Hernan Wilkinson (or bronze to be defined) 2500 Normal 40 Bill schwab Herve verjus Damien cassou McLeod Max Leske Phil Back (bronze may be) Yanni Chiu Andrea Brühlmann Stefan Reichhart Niklaus Lutz Max Leske Simon Jakovina 480

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Graham McLeod

Hi All Reading the thread, I just wanted to add my .02 worth. I have no problem in ESUG sponsoring Pharo Consortium, like it has sponsored many other worthwhile Smalltalk related projects. The history of decisions taken by the board is comforting as it shows impartiality across dialects and initiatives. These facts speak more loudly than principles and discussion. The quantum of sponsorship mentioned is very reasonable in the light of other assistance given to much more focussed projects. I believe that all dialects of Smalltalk have benefitted from the work on Pharo and its use as a platform to evolve products like Seaside, Magritte, Fuel and many others which flow into the broader Smalltalk community. I would like to publicly thank all volunteers on the ESUG board and the Pharo group for their work and efforts which have made and are making major contributions. Please don't be discouraged by the discussion on this thread. C++ has users, Java enthusiasts, and Smalltalk zealots! People are passionate and want to see good things - lets harness the positive energy. At a technical level, I have had experience over 20 years of working in various Smalltalks and attempting projects in C++, Java, Java Script and various other languages. Every time I come back to the comfort zone that is Smalltalk. It is simply more "right", better and consistent than the other environments. I have looked at Python, Ruby, Coffee Script, Objective C, Erlang.... etc. There is still nothing with the breadth of capabilities, purity, accessibility and openness (in the sense that an average developer can get at the internals and implementation of the language and libraries) of Smalltalk. Yes, it is old and there are some messy bits and frustrations. Alan Kay himself has said he is frustrated that there is not something better to replace Smalltalk. What I see in the Pharo space over the last two years gives me hope that this could be it. There is a critical mass of innovation and community activity that is generating a very dynamic, capable system and eco-system. I would hate to see the very good work of many towards this dissipated when we are close to realisation of a really great environment. We should give every encouragement to those pushing things forward. Go, Stef, Damien, Luc, Marcus, et al.... Best Graham Damien Cassou wrote: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Michael Haupt<mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> How long are terms? > > as far as I know, we don't have such a thing: > > - the board has no minimum/maximum size > - anybody willing to help seriously is invited to send an email to the > board to offer his free time. Then we ask the community during the > conference if they accept this new board member. > - when somebody wants to quit to take back part of his free time, he > just does so (as Noury recently did after years and years of handling > ESUG's money, a job that requires a lot of effort and rigor). In this > case we ask all board members who is willing to take some more work to > replace the leaving member (and Luc accepted to do that, thank you > Luc). > > You are right, we should improve our communication and probably have a > dedicated web page, let me add that to my todo list :-). >

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > How long are terms? as far as I know, we don't have such a thing: - the board has no minimum/maximum size - anybody willing to help seriously is invited to send an email to the board to offer his free time. Then we ask the community during the conference if they accept this new board member. - when somebody wants to quit to take back part of his free time, he just does so (as Noury recently did after years and years of handling ESUG's money, a job that requires a lot of effort and rigor). In this case we ask all board members who is willing to take some more work to replace the leaving member (and Luc accepted to do that, thank you Luc). You are right, we should improve our communication and probably have a dedicated web page, let me add that to my todo list :-). -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 5, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Steven Kelly

Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > here are the members of the ESUG's board: > > President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo > Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo > Damien Cassou <- Pharo > Jordi Delgado <- Pharo > Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo > Alain Plantec <- Pharo > Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it. Go Smalltalk! Steve

July 5, 2012