July 2012 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Reza Razavi

At 15:39 06/07/2012, Niall Ross wrote: >what legal discussions have already taken place. Dear Niall, Thanks for your insightful comments! Issues related to Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are in general complex. They are raised when institutions invest in developing a piece of software, and depend on their business model. They typically determine who is legally authorized to make decisions, e.g. about licensing policy, and exploit the product(s), etc. In these specific case, it would also involve deciding whether or not to accept such donations. If these questions have been discussed and the Community is aware of the underlying policies (I personally didn't followed these topics in details), that's fine. Otherwise, IMHO, it would make sense to address them as soon as possible in a systematic way. Cheers, Reza

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Thorsten Seitz

Am 06.07.2012 um 16:36 schrieb James Robertson: > Personally, I'd like to thank the ESUG board in general, and Stef in particular, for all of the work they put into promoting Smalltalk. I have a pretty good idea as to how thankless a job that often is, and I for one appreciate all of their efforts! Well said and I wholeheartedly agree! -Thorsten

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by James Robertson

Personally, I'd like to thank the ESUG board in general, and Stef in particular, for all of the work they put into promoting Smalltalk. I have a pretty good idea as to how thankless a job that often is, and I for one appreciate all of their efforts! On Jul 5, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks a lot steven for pissing on us. > This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board > was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak foundation. > > But you are welcome. Do you not worry, you are damaging ESUG and this is great. You are an hero. > > Keep going. Thanks for all these positive energy. > > Stef > > > On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: > >> Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: >> >>> here are the members of the ESUG's board: >>> >>> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo >>> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo >>> Damien Cassou <- Pharo >>> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo >>> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo >>> Alain Plantec <- Pharo >>> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits >> >> If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest. >> >> So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :). >> >> No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it. >> >> Go Smalltalk! >> Steve >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Niall Ross

Dear Andreas, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >sorry andreas but apparently you do not know what is to take the risk to organize a conference and get broken >Now it happens with ESUG certain years and > > >>>I would agree with you if ESUG was spending 100% of the money it has. >>> I agree with Stephane. Over a period of many years, I believe ESUG does spend "all the money it has", in that any money ESUG gets is sooner or later spent on Smalltalk. In a single year, ESUG must budget to ensure the conference succeeds. Last year, I got a special insight ( :-) ) into how that means estimating and hoping. Especially at this time of year, there is both hope and some stress for those who run ESUG. For the good of Smalltalk, failure is not an option! That means the year's budget plan must ensure it is not - and at the same time, deliver great value to all who come to ESUG. So I believe in a given year, ESUG should not plan to spend 100% of all the money it hopes to raise that year. Yours faithfully Niall Ross ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com ______________________________________________________________________

July 6, 2012

Fwd: ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Igor Stasenko

Let's make it clear.. A project X, which is a smalltalk-based project bootstrapping a consortium and inviting all organizations/individuals who want to participate. Question 1: what is a logical reaction from ESUG should be, which mission is to support and popularize smalltalk? Question 2: if you replace X with 'Pharo', how this changing the situation? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Niall Ross

Dear Reza, Reza Razavi wrote: > At 10:28 06/07/2012, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: > >> Critisizing is easy > > > Maarten, > > The valuable contributions of Steve and others to the issue raised by > Damien on behalf of the ESUG board are not intended to criticize > anybody; this is at least least my understanding, and I don't think > I'm mistaken. They (simply) try to explain the rules that govern such > situations. I agree that the contributions by Steve Kelly have been courteous, well-phrased, and a very legitimate offer of his opinion on the question sensibly raised by Damien. Steve himself has stressed that the ESUG board, not the membership, make decisions. The board, having asked for input, can consider what has been offered, and in due course decide whether they agree or disagree with any particular point. If disagreement has to be expressed, SteveK's style offers an example of how to express contrary ideas with courtesy. > > For example, *to "talk to the INRIA lawyers about this" appears really > essential, specifically given the role of this institution in both > Pharo Consortium and also as the employer of several Pharo > contributors, who also play major roles in ESUG*. On this particular point, my instinct is not to involve lawyers more than needed, lest mares' nests be created. Stephane knows INRIA, ESUG and what legal discussions have already taken place. If he feels no more is needed, my instinct would agree. (I don't _know_ anything of course - the opinion is offered FWIW.) Yours faithfully Niall Ross > > This looks like technical and complex enough situation to refer to > experts in that area (i.e. lawyers); isn't it? > > Best, > Reza > (Smalltalker and ESUG member since 1992) > http://linkedin.com/in/razavi > http://aas-platform.com > <http://aas-platform.com/> http://rezarazavi.com <http://rezarazavi.com/> > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com ______________________________________________________________________

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk lecture in Africa

by Nowak, Helge

Dear Stef, what kind of lecture would that be and who will be doing it? Or, are you also looking for a lecturer that you'd like to fund the travel? Cheers Helge -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Stéphane Ducasse Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2012 21:40 An: Stéphane Ducasse Cc: ESUG Mailing list Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium BTW since people are reading this nice thread I would like to take the advantage to get the following message: ESUG would like to get some lectures done in Afrika. If you happened to know good university that would be interested we would like to sponsor a lecture. Stef _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Reza Razavi

At 10:28 06/07/2012, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: >Critisizing is easy Maarten, The valuable contributions of Steve and others to the issue raised by Damien on behalf of the ESUG board are not intended to criticize anybody; this is at least least my understanding, and I don't think I'm mistaken. They (simply) try to explain the rules that govern such situations. For example, to "talk to the INRIA lawyers about this" appears really essential, specifically given the role of this institution in both Pharo Consortium and also as the employer of several Pharo contributors, who also play major roles in ESUG. This looks like technical and complex enough situation to refer to experts in that area (i.e. lawyers); isn't it? Best, Reza (Smalltalker and ESUG member since 1992) http://linkedin.com/in/razavi http://aas-platform.com http://rezarazavi.com

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Maarten MOSTERT

Steve, I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that ! If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€ stop stop stop !!) Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!! Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better ! Regards, @+Maarten, > Message du 06/07/12 09:00 > De : "Steven Kelly" > A : esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > Hi Stef, > > You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions. > > > This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was > > programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board > > was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak > > foundation. > > I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions. > > >> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger > >> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !! > > > > I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press > > and marketing. It would be really funny. > > VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association > > to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh > > a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot. > > Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past. > > Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support. > > Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG. > > If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure. > > All the best, > Steve > > > On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, > > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a > > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which > > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and > > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, > > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what > > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > > > > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: > > >> > > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse > > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse > > >> Damien Cassou > > >> Jordi Delgado > > >> Marcus Denker > > >> Alain Plantec > > >> Serge Stinckwich > > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving > > most hits > > > > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it > > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand > > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to > > mention potential conflicts of interest. > > > > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? > > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something > > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's > > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk > > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a > > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list > > may be a little tense :). > > > > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, > > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG > > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully > > nobody gets upset about it. > > > > > > Go Smalltalk! > > > Steve > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Esug-list mailing list > > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 6, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Steven Kelly

Hi Stef, You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions. > This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was > programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board > was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak > foundation. I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions. >> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger >> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !! > > I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press > and marketing. It would be really funny. > VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association > to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh > a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot. Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past. Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support. Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG. If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure. All the best, Steve > On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: > >> > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo > >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo > >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo > >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo > >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo > >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving > most hits > > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to > mention potential conflicts of interest. > > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list > may be a little tense :). > > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully > nobody gets upset about it. > > > > Go Smalltalk! > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 6, 2012