July 2012 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Johan Brichau

Dear all, In response to the original question: I think that bootstrapping the Pharo consortium is a legitimate target for ESUG sponsoring. The goals is to create a sustainable Smalltalk principally sponsored by PME industry. In that way, Pharo is the direct harvester of the funds but Smalltalk benefits in general if this project succeeds. I also think the contribution should be revised yearly (this goes without saying) and it should be in proportion to the amount of funding that is given/available to other projects. Given the history of ESUG (and the current board in particular), I see no reason to doubt the honest intentions. The opening of this question on the mailinglist is a testament to that. Best regards Johan Brichau disclaimer: I am concerned in the sense that my company will contribute to the consortium as well. I use Pharo and am the local organizer for the ESUG conference this year. This should make my 'conflict of interest' clear as well ;-) On 05 Jul 2012, at 15:43, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi Andreas > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Andreas Raab <Andreas.Raab(a)gmx.de> wrote: >> Here is how it is unfair: If I understand the basic process of selecting and >> supporting projects by ESUG, then the distribution of projects supported by >> ESUG is roughly equivalent to the popularity of the various communities. >> This seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, and ESUG is doing a good job >> with the various projects it supports. >> >> However, once ESUG starts giving chunks of money to particular dialects >> directly, then first of all that money is no longer spent across the various >> dialects. > > > I would agree with you if ESUG was spending 100% of the money it has. > Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we > get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we > might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all > representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring > requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before > spending part of it. > > >> So for an approx. 3000 EUR Pharo membership the board could >> sponsor 20 students with 150 EUR each. And while it may be that 15 of those >> are indeed Pharo related, there is still sponsorshop done for the remaining >> 5 which would fall under the table if the money went directly to Pharo. >> That's seems obviously unfair. > > > Please encourage students around you to submit sponsoring requests. We > will be really happy to support them. > > >> Secondly, the membership in Pharo is perpetual; if some other project raises >> in popularity there will *still* 100% of the money be going to Pharo. For >> eternity. That's just as unfair. > > > I agree with you, a permanent sponsorship is probably not the best > idea and we should discuss the options. Still, we are not talking > about 100% of the money. > > >> There is nothing wrong with sponsoring Pharo projects by ESUG. What's wrong >> is giving the money, which would otherwise be spent in some relation to the >> popularity of each dialect, to one dialect only. > > > In the past, ESUG supported Squeak e.V. and the Squeak VM. What is the > difference? > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk lecture in Africa

by Dale Henrichs

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] Roassal 1.59 released

by Stéphane Ducasse

Thanks alex. We need more projects like yours! Keep pushing. Stef On Jul 9, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > Hi! > > For nearly one year, we have been pushing the Roassal visualization engine at a steady pace. > We are now happy to release Roassal 1.59, for VisualWorks and Pharo. Screenshots have been added to http://objectprofile.com/pier/Products/Roassal/ > > We have fixed many bugs. Thanks to you to have reported it. > In addition to this, a set of "color normalizers" have been added. A highly wanted feature, especially by the Moose community. Normalizers are useful to generate fading and coloring effects. Numerous examples are provided in the easel. > > Glamour also supports Roassal. This means that panes of a glamour browser can be a Roassal visualization. > > What could be considered as "game changers" will be announced soon. Such as an Amber/JavaScript exporter and to use the athens renderer. > > Many people are involved in this new release. Our thanks goes in particular to, in no special order: > Tudor Girba, Chris Thorgrimsson, Usman Bhatti, Dennis Schenk, Stéphane Ducasse, Martin Dias, Daan Smit, Steffen Märcker, Ben Coman, Paul DeBruicker, Serge Stinckwich, Torsten Bergmann, Mariano Martinez Peck, Santiago Vidal and many others. > > Cheers, > The Object Profile crew > http://ObjectProfile.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

by Stéphane Ducasse

Simply thanks. And not counting the amount of hours organizing ESUG (I even payed all the registrations to the conferences I organized)!!!! Silly me. Stef > > Steve, > > I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that ! > > If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€ stop stop stop !!) > > Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!! > > Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better ! > > Regards, > > @+Maarten, > > > > > Message du 06/07/12 09:00 > > De : "Steven Kelly" > > A : esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > Copie à : > > Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > > > Hi Stef, > > > > You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions. > > > > > This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was > > > programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board > > > was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak > > > foundation. > > > > I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions. > > > > >> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger > > >> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !! > > > > > > I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press > > > and marketing. It would be really funny. > > > VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association > > > to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh > > > a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot. > > > > Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past. > > > > Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support. > > > > Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG. > > > > If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure. > > > > All the best, > > Steve > > > > > On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > > > > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, > > > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a > > > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which > > > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and > > > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, > > > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what > > > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > > > > > > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: > > > >> > > > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse > > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse > > >> Damien Cassou > > >> Jordi Delgado > > >> Marcus Denker > > >> Alain Plantec > > >> Serge Stinckwich > > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving > > > most hits > > > > > > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it > > > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand > > > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to > > > mention potential conflicts of interest. > > > > > > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? > > > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something > > > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's > > > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk > > > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a > > > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list > > > may be a little tense :). > > > > > > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, > > > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG > > > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully > > > nobody gets upset about it. > > > > > > > > Go Smalltalk! > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Esug-list mailing list > > > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk lecture in Africa

by Stéphane Ducasse

BTW note that this was probably a mistake to do all this work and the lectures for free. Because at the end this does not count. This is the same for the books I wrote. May be I'm too stupid and I should work on something else. When I see how people react when we talk about participating to the pharo consortium for about 4000 K and when I see the amount of time we spent pushing smalltalk and helping this community, this makes me really think. After all may be aiming for a better system is not good, I should have just run after money. I think that now with JavaScript dynamic languages will be really changing the world and Smalltalk does not look in the picture. Stef On Jul 6, 2012, at 12:08 PM, Nowak, Helge wrote: > Dear Stef, > > what kind of lecture would that be and who will be doing it? Or, are you also looking for a lecturer that you'd like to fund the travel? > > Cheers > Helge > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Stéphane Ducasse > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2012 21:40 > An: Stéphane Ducasse > Cc: ESUG Mailing list > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > BTW since people are reading this nice thread I would like to take the advantage to get the following message: > > ESUG would like to get some lectures done in Afrika. If you happened to know good university that would be interested we would like to sponsor a lecture. > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk lecture in Africa

by Stéphane Ducasse

> Dear Stef, > > what kind of lecture would that be and who will be doing it? A starter and a bit more advanced lecture: like the ones I did at Timisoara and Turino or Alex did in another city in Romania. Check my lectures website. I also did one in switzerland in the past in a fachhoschule. And the idea is that we give also the lecture material so that people can redo after us the lecture. > Or, are you also looking for a lecturer that you'd like to fund the travel? Not really for now. Note that we do not pay the lecture. So in my case I always did the lecture for free. ESUG payed some of the trip expenses and my team budget often participated to the rest. Stef > > Cheers > Helge > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Stéphane Ducasse > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2012 21:40 > An: Stéphane Ducasse > Cc: ESUG Mailing list > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium > > BTW since people are reading this nice thread I would like to take the advantage to get the following message: > > ESUG would like to get some lectures done in Afrika. If you happened to know good university that would be interested we would like to sponsor a lecture. > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 12, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] New coat of paint for the World of Smalltalk ...

by Carla F. Griggio

Very nice!! That reminds me: we started using Smalltalk at another University here in Argentina: UNSAM (UNSAM - Universidad Nacional de San Martín<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=unsam&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFIQFjAA&…>). Maybe you can add it? :) On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > After about 2 years I thought it was time to give the World of Smalltalk ( > http://www.world.st world.st ) a refresh and I managed to find a bit of > time > after work. > > Some Google Analytics stats: > forum.world.st data since January 2011: > Visits: 214,519 > Unique Visitors: 106,871 > Average Visits: Between 300 - 450 per day > From: 182 Countries > Top City: Buenos Aires, Argentina > > world.st data since April 2010: > Visits: 25,096 > Unique Visitors: 14,002 > Average Visits: Between 30 - 40 per day > From: 140 Countries > Top City: Montevideo, Uruguay > > http://forum.world.st/file/n4639533/worldStVisits.png > > http://forum.world.st/file/n4639533/worldStForumVisits.png > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/New-coat-of-paint-for-the-World-of-Smalltalk-tp463953… > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

July 11, 2012

New coat of paint for the World of Smalltalk ...

by Geert Claes

After about 2 years I thought it was time to give the World of Smalltalk ( http://www.world.st world.st ) a refresh and I managed to find a bit of time after work. Some Google Analytics stats: forum.world.st data since January 2011: Visits: 214,519 Unique Visitors: 106,871 Average Visits: Between 300 - 450 per day From: 182 Countries Top City: Buenos Aires, Argentina world.st data since April 2010: Visits: 25,096 Unique Visitors: 14,002 Average Visits: Between 30 - 40 per day From: 140 Countries Top City: Montevideo, Uruguay http://forum.world.st/file/n4639533/worldStVisits.png http://forum.world.st/file/n4639533/worldStForumVisits.png -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/New-coat-of-paint-for-the-World-of-Smalltalk-tp463953… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 11, 2012

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] Roassal 1.59 released

by Martin Dias

Thank you Alexandre, I enjoy a lot using Roassal for the Fuel visualizer, and I'm eager to have more free time to continue experimenting. Bests, Martín On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:03 AM, Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: > Hi! > > For nearly one year, we have been pushing the Roassal visualization engine at a steady pace. > We are now happy to release Roassal 1.59, for VisualWorks and Pharo. Screenshots have been added to http://objectprofile.com/pier/Products/Roassal/ > > We have fixed many bugs. Thanks to you to have reported it. > In addition to this, a set of "color normalizers" have been added. A highly wanted feature, especially by the Moose community. Normalizers are useful to generate fading and coloring effects. Numerous examples are provided in the easel. > > Glamour also supports Roassal. This means that panes of a glamour browser can be a Roassal visualization. > > What could be considered as "game changers" will be announced soon. Such as an Amber/JavaScript exporter and to use the athens renderer. > > Many people are involved in this new release. Our thanks goes in particular to, in no special order: > Tudor Girba, Chris Thorgrimsson, Usman Bhatti, Dennis Schenk, Stéphane Ducasse, Martin Dias, Daan Smit, Steffen Märcker, Ben Coman, Paul DeBruicker, Serge Stinckwich, Torsten Bergmann, Mariano Martinez Peck, Santiago Vidal and many others. > > Cheers, > The Object Profile crew > http://ObjectProfile.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

July 9, 2012

[ANN] Roassal 1.59 released

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi! For nearly one year, we have been pushing the Roassal visualization engine at a steady pace. We are now happy to release Roassal 1.59, for VisualWorks and Pharo. Screenshots have been added to http://objectprofile.com/pier/Products/Roassal/ We have fixed many bugs. Thanks to you to have reported it. In addition to this, a set of "color normalizers" have been added. A highly wanted feature, especially by the Moose community. Normalizers are useful to generate fading and coloring effects. Numerous examples are provided in the easel. Glamour also supports Roassal. This means that panes of a glamour browser can be a Roassal visualization. What could be considered as "game changers" will be announced soon. Such as an Amber/JavaScript exporter and to use the athens renderer. Many people are involved in this new release. Our thanks goes in particular to, in no special order: Tudor Girba, Chris Thorgrimsson, Usman Bhatti, Dennis Schenk, Stéphane Ducasse, Martin Dias, Daan Smit, Steffen Märcker, Ben Coman, Paul DeBruicker, Serge Stinckwich, Torsten Bergmann, Mariano Martinez Peck, Santiago Vidal and many others. Cheers, The Object Profile crew http://ObjectProfile.com

July 9, 2012