May 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Joachim Tuchel <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > So what would be better? > > I think a collection of cookbooks would. Maybe defining layers of a web app, > starting from the Browser through all layers of functionality to the data > backend, and collecting material for each of them would be much better. If > I'm interested in a load-balanced, https-aware installation of a Squeak > Image that persists data in Magma, I can choose appropriate documentation > for each layer. Some layers may not be deeply related to Smalltalk at all, > then we could add links to relevant information (like how do I configure > Apache as a load balancer with Sticky sessions?), while others might be > deeply related to Smalltalk. yes, cookbooks would be nice. We also need simple, reliable, no investigation, no fuss, low effort way to deploy most common forms of smalltalk web app or pier blog. If you want fancy stuff you go for recipes or forge one for yourself. But for most common cases it would be great if it would be smooth and reliable. We need distilled, reliable and maintained most common cases, and it seems that this is also one of the goals of SmallHarbour. It is like Linux and its distributions. Linux can be anything, which is great, but distribution makes it much more usable in some domain. just my 2 lipas, Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

May 18, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Joachim Tuchel

May 18, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

Thanks a lot Nick for your feedback, it is helpful. Laurent. On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Nick Ager <nick.ager(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Romain, Laurent, > > >> Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some >>>> Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… >>>> >>> > After having shared the above Amazon AMI (Amazon machine image), and > experimented with EC2 hosting, I realised there are some undesirable > properties of AMIs: > > 1) It's an image; with all the benefits and problems that entails; namely > either you like the whole thing or not. It's not composable; it's difficult > to know precisely what has been configured and how, and difficult to choose > the bits you like and replace the bits you don't like. > 2) You can't (currently for Linux), create an AMI locally and upload it, > meaning everything has to be performed remotely and operating remotely in > the IDE over X11 forwarding can be slow. > 3) It's difficult to share across regions. Amazon's data centres operate > autonomously. I created the image in EU-WEST and copying it to US-WEST or > US-EAST is non-trivial. > 4) It's another configuration that I need to keep up to date and I don't. > 5) Not everyone wants to use EC2; other cloud services are available eg > slicehost, linode, cloud-foudry etc > 6) I configured the AMI using Amazon Linux, people might prefer Ubuntu, > RHEL, Suse, Windows!#*? etc > 7) I configured the AMI using Nginx as a front-end server with added > modules (http://nickager.com/blog/compiling-nginx-to-add-extra-modules/) > others might require other modules or other different server eg Apache, > Cherokee etc. Even with the same server the configuration required can vary > (url redirection, static file serving etc). > 8) Everyone has a different way of performing backups, monitoring the > health of the server. > 9) I configured the AMI using Gemstone, others might prefer image based > persistence or MySQL, Postgres etc. > 10) Ideally the configuration would allow you to specify the number of > images (or Gems for Gemstone) you'd like to respond to request, behind a > load balancer. > 11) We currently require infrastructure support for https eg stunnel or > reverse proxy through a webserver eg > http://www.monkeysnatchbanana.com/posts/2010/06/23/reverse-proxying-to-seas… > > Quite a list... The main issue is that I'd like to be able to build server > infrastructure from composable pieces and share configuration knowledge with > others. This led me to Chef (http://opscode.com/chef/) where people create > configuration "recipes" and a specific configuration is composed from these > recipes. The benefit of using something like Chef is that there are > already recipes for the standard parts of the server configuration eg > installing and configuring Apache, Nginx, MySql, Postgres etc have already > been taken care of. Chef abstracts the OS, and the cloud (eg EC2, slicehost > etc). > > The task is then to create recipes for Seaside specific parts. There are a > couple of Gemstone recipes already ( > https://github.com/timfel/gemstone-cookbooks, > https://github.com/johnnyt/gemstone-cookbooks) A few of us (myself > Norbert Hartl, Stephen Eggermont) plan to investigate coding our > configurations is Chef - though it's still early days and it may prove that > it's more complex than we need. > > Our basic requirements are to be able to rapidly deploy production, > staging, backup, Jenkins continuous integration and development VMs. > > Do others have experience with Chef or something similar? > > Ideally ESUG or someone else would provide http://www.heroku.com/ for > Seaside - but it would require formalising more of our stack and providing a > flexible solution to https. > > Hope this helps, > > Nick >

May 18, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Nick Ager

Hi Romain, Laurent, > Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some >>> Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… >>> >> After having shared the above Amazon AMI (Amazon machine image), and experimented with EC2 hosting, I realised there are some undesirable properties of AMIs: 1) It's an image; with all the benefits and problems that entails; namely either you like the whole thing or not. It's not composable; it's difficult to know precisely what has been configured and how, and difficult to choose the bits you like and replace the bits you don't like. 2) You can't (currently for Linux), create an AMI locally and upload it, meaning everything has to be performed remotely and operating remotely in the IDE over X11 forwarding can be slow. 3) It's difficult to share across regions. Amazon's data centres operate autonomously. I created the image in EU-WEST and copying it to US-WEST or US-EAST is non-trivial. 4) It's another configuration that I need to keep up to date and I don't. 5) Not everyone wants to use EC2; other cloud services are available eg slicehost, linode, cloud-foudry etc 6) I configured the AMI using Amazon Linux, people might prefer Ubuntu, RHEL, Suse, Windows!#*? etc 7) I configured the AMI using Nginx as a front-end server with added modules (http://nickager.com/blog/compiling-nginx-to-add-extra-modules/) others might require other modules or other different server eg Apache, Cherokee etc. Even with the same server the configuration required can vary (url redirection, static file serving etc). 8) Everyone has a different way of performing backups, monitoring the health of the server. 9) I configured the AMI using Gemstone, others might prefer image based persistence or MySQL, Postgres etc. 10) Ideally the configuration would allow you to specify the number of images (or Gems for Gemstone) you'd like to respond to request, behind a load balancer. 11) We currently require infrastructure support for https eg stunnel or reverse proxy through a webserver eg http://www.monkeysnatchbanana.com/posts/2010/06/23/reverse-proxying-to-seas… Quite a list... The main issue is that I'd like to be able to build server infrastructure from composable pieces and share configuration knowledge with others. This led me to Chef (http://opscode.com/chef/) where people create configuration "recipes" and a specific configuration is composed from these recipes. The benefit of using something like Chef is that there are already recipes for the standard parts of the server configuration eg installing and configuring Apache, Nginx, MySql, Postgres etc have already been taken care of. Chef abstracts the OS, and the cloud (eg EC2, slicehost etc). The task is then to create recipes for Seaside specific parts. There are a couple of Gemstone recipes already ( https://github.com/timfel/gemstone-cookbooks, https://github.com/johnnyt/gemstone-cookbooks) A few of us (myself Norbert Hartl, Stephen Eggermont) plan to investigate coding our configurations is Chef - though it's still early days and it may prove that it's more complex than we need. Our basic requirements are to be able to rapidly deploy production, staging, backup, Jenkins continuous integration and development VMs. Do others have experience with Chef or something similar? Ideally ESUG or someone else would provide http://www.heroku.com/ for Seaside - but it would require formalising more of our stack and providing a flexible solution to https. Hope this helps, Nick

May 18, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:48 PM, Dale Henrichs <dhenrich(a)vmware.com> wrote: > On 05/17/2011 12:37 PM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont >> <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >>> >> .. >> >> Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some >> Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: >> >> >> http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… >> >> You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned >> CloudFoundry for following reasons: >> - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to >> different cloud providers >> - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and >> Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could >> be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. >> >> As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if >> you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby >> knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would >> be very nice to have :) >> >> As for your other goals - great! >> >> Davorin Rusevljan >> http://www.cloud208.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > Laurent/Davorin, > > We are in the process of adding support for deploying GLASS applications > into the Cloud Foundry, but I wouldn't mind helping folks who are interested > in adding support for other Smalltalks into the Cloud Foundry ... The Cloud > Foundry is written largely in ruby, so you'll need to be wearing your ruby > dancing shoes:) > Thanks Dale, just need to wax my shoes first, haven't worn them for a long time :) Laurent. > > Dale >

May 18, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Dale Henrichs

On 05/17/2011 12:37 PM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont > <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) > .. > > Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some > Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: > > http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… > > You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned > CloudFoundry for following reasons: > - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to > different cloud providers > - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and > Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could > be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. > > As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if > you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby > knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would > be very nice to have :) > > As for your other goals - great! > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org Laurent/Davorin, We are in the process of adding support for deploying GLASS applications into the Cloud Foundry, but I wouldn't mind helping folks who are interested in adding support for other Smalltalks into the Cloud Foundry ... The Cloud Foundry is written largely in ruby, so you'll need to be wearing your ruby dancing shoes:) Dale

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont > <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) > .. > > Having Amazon ec2 image is also a very good idea, and some > Smalltalkers have already made first important steps like: > > > http://www.nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-… > > You probably already have enough on your plate, but I mentioned > CloudFoundry for following reasons: > - it has a promise that one would be able to deploy SmallHarbour to > different cloud providers > - CloudFoundry currently provides support for Java, Ruby and > Javascript, adding Smalltalk would be nice for visibility, and could > be used for other Smalltalk services not only SmallHarbour. > > As I said you probably have enough to do in the first place, but if > you just happen to have some student lurking that has some ruby > knowledge to hack the interface for Smalltalk to Cloudfoundry it would > be very nice to have :) > Yes. Indeed I would like contributing to SmallHarbour to be easy. So Cloundfoundry should be one (worthwhile) among several ways to deploy SmallHarbour platform. Laurent Laffont - @lolgzs <http://twitter.com/#!/lolgzs> Pharo Smalltalk Screencasts: http://www.pharocasts.com/ Blog: http://magaloma.blogspot.com/ Developer group: http://cara74.seasidehosting.st > > As for your other goals - great! > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ >

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:41 PM, laurent laffont < > laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < >> marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. >>> It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. >>> >> >> Yes, good idea to have a look. >> >> I actually wonder which database support should come out of the box. >> >> > Do it directly on top of Glass and you already have a lot of things for > free, included that question ;) > I would like all the stack to be open source. Gemstone isn't ? Laurent. > You only need to implement the logistic for the app (kind of > seasidehosting). > > >> Laurent. >> >> >> >>> BTW, cool project and congrats! >>> >>> mariano >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont < >>> laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < >>>> davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting! >>>>> >>>>> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >>>> >>>> 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting >>>> platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud >>>> or on a real server should be a preference. >>>> >>>> Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be >>>> appreciated. >>>> >>>> We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... >>>> for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to >>>> learn). >>>> >>>> For example: >>>> a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web >>>> applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend >>>> time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the >>>> appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. >>>> >>>> b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several >>>> Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then >>>> >>>> apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... >>>> >>>> /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start >>>> >>>> and let's go ! >>>> >>>> >>>> 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for >>>> commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly >>>> fee related to the service you want, then either >>>> >>>> a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a >>>> power user >>>> >>>> b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, >>>> blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated >>>> easily. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't >>>> need SmallHarbour :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Laurent >>>> >>>> Davorin Rusevljan >>>>> http://www.cloud208.com/ >>>>> >>>>> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >>>>> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Just a ... >>>>> >>>>> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >>>>> >>>>> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We >>>>> will start with Seaside though. >>>>> >>>>> Laurent. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mariano >>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:41 PM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < > marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. >> It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. >> > > Yes, good idea to have a look. > > I actually wonder which database support should come out of the box. > > Do it directly on top of Glass and you already have a lot of things for free, included that question ;) You only need to implement the logistic for the app (kind of seasidehosting). > Laurent. > > > >> BTW, cool project and congrats! >> >> mariano >> >> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont < >> laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < >>> davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Interesting! >>>> >>>> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >>>> >>> >>> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >>> >>> 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting >>> platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud >>> or on a real server should be a preference. >>> >>> Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be >>> appreciated. >>> >>> We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... >>> for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to >>> learn). >>> >>> For example: >>> a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web >>> applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend >>> time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the >>> appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. >>> >>> b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several >>> Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then >>> >>> apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... >>> >>> /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start >>> >>> and let's go ! >>> >>> >>> 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for >>> commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly >>> fee related to the service you want, then either >>> >>> a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a >>> power user >>> >>> b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, >>> blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated >>> easily. >>> >>> >>> 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't >>> need SmallHarbour :) >>> >>> >>> Laurent >>> >>> Davorin Rusevljan >>>> http://www.cloud208.com/ >>>> >>>> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >>>> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Just a ... >>>> >>>> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >>>> >>>> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We >>>> will start with Seaside though. >>>> >>>> Laurent. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >>>> >> >>>> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mariano >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> >> > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] SmallHarbour project

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Laurent. You should take a look to GLASS applicance. > It is similar to what you want. You can take ideas from there. > Yes, good idea to have a look. I actually wonder which database support should come out of the box. Laurent. > BTW, cool project and congrats! > > mariano > > > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:19 PM, laurent laffont < > laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Davorin Rusevljan < >> davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Interesting! >>> >>> Have you maybe considered to base it on the cloud foundry? >>> >> >> Actually we have several visions (nothing is final here, ideas welcome) >> >> 1/ SmallHarbour platform is meant to be a base for YOUR own hosting >> platform, like your own seaside hosting. So whether you put it on the cloud >> or on a real server should be a preference. >> >> Actually we don't have any experience with cloud, so help will be >> appreciated. >> >> We plan to have a virtual appliance based on virtual box / vmware /.... >> for an easy setup. Amazon VMI image should be a good idea too (we have to >> learn). >> >> For example: >> a / I work in an enterprise, I want to easily deploy Smalltalk web >> applications / tools on intranet for my co-workers and I don't want to spend >> time on setting up servers, apache, ...... So I could just get the >> appliance, start it and I'm ready to deploy several images. >> >> b / I want to set up a unique VPS (or cloud platform) to deploy several >> Smalltalk web apps / sites. I could just put my preferred Linux distro, then >> >> apt-get install smallharbour / pacman -s smallharbour / .... >> >> /etc/rc.d/smallharbour start >> >> and let's go ! >> >> >> 2/ SmallHarbour hosting service which be like SeasideHosting, but for >> commercial purposes. So you should create an account, pay a monthly / yearly >> fee related to the service you want, then either >> >> a/ upload your own image (like you do for SeasideHosting) if you're a >> power user >> >> b/ one-click deploy of pre-made image if you just want to setup a CMS, >> blog, write a new book, event planing, ... Pre-made images should be updated >> easily. >> >> >> 3/ People who need scalability, performance, deep customization don't need >> SmallHarbour :) >> >> >> Laurent >> >> Davorin Rusevljan >>> http://www.cloud208.com/ >>> >>> On May 17, 2011 6:26 PM, "laurent laffont" <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bernat Romagosa < >>> tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Just a ... >>> >>> Yes, that's why we haven't called it SeasideSomething. >>> >>> We want the project to be open and support several web frameworks. We >>> will start with Seaside though. >>> >>> Laurent. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > 2011/5/17 Romain Verduci <contact(a)romain-verduci.com> >>> >> >>> >> We actually have www.seasideho... >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >

May 17, 2011