May 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki(a)vpri.org> wrote: > BTW, the page (http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel) > says: > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'Fuel'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; > load. > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project =latestVersion) load: #(Core > Tests Benchmarks). > > it does not appear to be a valid expression. What is the right > expression? > the = Try: Gofer new squeaksource: 'Fuel'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project latestVersion) load: #(Core Tests Benchmarks). > > -- Yoshiki > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Yoshiki Ohshima

BTW, the page (http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel) says: Gofer new squeaksource: 'Fuel'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFuel'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFuel) project =latestVersion) load: #(Core Tests Benchmarks). it does not appear to be a valid expression. What is the right expression? -- Yoshiki

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Yoshiki Ohshima

At Thu, 26 May 2011 09:51:00 +0200, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On May 25, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > > > At Wed, 25 May 2011 15:28:00 +0200, > > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >> One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). > >> The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. > > > > Sounds interesting! Can I learn about "hetzel" somewhere? > > > We are working on how to build minimal Pharo kernels (with the goal of a declarative bootstrap so you can build your own > version of Smalltalk running in the normal Pharo image to experiment with new language features, as one example, or > create a minimal image for deployment). > > There is some information from Nicolas Paez who worked on this when visiting RMOD last year: > > http://www.fast.org.ar/smalltalks2010/videos/Seed+project%3A+The+challenge+… > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/talks/2010-Smalltalks-Paez-Seed.pdf > > The status is that we learned a lot and continue to work on it... more to come later ;-) Yay! Declarative bootstrap is good. MicroSqueak is mostly classes and code with a bit of setup, so I thought if the tracer (MicroSqueakImageBuilder) takes somewhat different format but essentially with the same information, you can build an image and then whatever code loader that can load Compiler, you can get to a working state. But as you say, there must be details and I'm all curious to learn also! -- Yoshiki

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > On May 25, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > > > At Wed, 25 May 2011 15:28:00 +0200, > > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >> One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is > to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). > >> The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo > image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. > > > > Sounds interesting! Can I learn about "hetzel" somewhere? > > > We are working on how to build minimal Pharo kernels (with the goal of a > declarative bootstrap so you can build your own > version of Smalltalk running in the normal Pharo image to experiment with > new language features, as one example, or > create a minimal image for deployment). > > There is some information from Nicolas Paez who worked on this when > visiting RMOD last year: > > > http://www.fast.org.ar/smalltalks2010/videos/Seed+project%3A+The+challenge+… > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/talks/2010-Smalltalks-Paez-Seed.pdf > > The status is that we learned a lot and continue to work on it... more to > come later ;-) > > Ben is now working in the project. He will soon create a website inside RMOD with some more information. He has also some slides and a full report explaing about it :) > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Marcus Denker

On May 25, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > At Wed, 25 May 2011 15:28:00 +0200, > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >> One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). >> The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. > > Sounds interesting! Can I learn about "hetzel" somewhere? > We are working on how to build minimal Pharo kernels (with the goal of a declarative bootstrap so you can build your own version of Smalltalk running in the normal Pharo image to experiment with new language features, as one example, or create a minimal image for deployment). There is some information from Nicolas Paez who worked on this when visiting RMOD last year: http://www.fast.org.ar/smalltalks2010/videos/Seed+project%3A+The+challenge+… http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/talks/2010-Smalltalks-Paez-Seed.pdf The status is that we learned a lot and continue to work on it... more to come later ;-) Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Martin Dias

Hi On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Philippe. I don't know why but your emails always go to spam in my > account :( > > >> > Actually, the project has already started since several months. Tristan >> > Bourgois and I started with the project while doing an internship with >> RMoD, >> > INRIA. Since a couple of months, Mariano Martinez Peck joined the team, >> and >> > now he is the official mentor in the SummerTalk. >> > >> > ESUG website for SummertTalk: >> > http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Promotion/SummerTalk/SummerTalk2011 >> > >> > The website with all the necessary information is here: >> > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel >> > It even includes slides explaining the algorithm. In addition, a paper >> is in >> > progress. >> >> Could you make the slides available in some other format than Flash? >> >> > Ok, Martin will do it and upload them directly to the website. > Yes, sorry. I kept the embedded slides but I added links to the pdf "sources". > > > >> > For the moment, Fuel already provides the following features: >> > >> > - Fast pickle format. It is much faster to materialize than to >> serialize. >> >> What has led to the conclusion that materialization is more important >> than serialization? > > > One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is to > be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). > The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo image > (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. > I all those cases we assume that you serialize only once or few times and > you materialize much more times. > But of course, that does not apply to all cases, like you said about > session replication. > Actually, despite we have this hypothesis (de-serialization is done much more often than serialization), I often think it is not something really essential to the project. It was an early decision to base on the Parcel's algorithm, which has this feature, but I believe we can eventually implement an alternative strategy that favors serialization performance over deserialization. I think other more essential features (or goals!) are: - any object can be serialized. - binary class load, without compilation. - fast and focused on just one dialect, don't worry about an inter-platform format. - flexibility, for selecting the graph to serialize. > > >> I can image scenarios when there is a one to one >> relationship and scenarios where serialization is more important (e.g. >> session replication). >> >> > - Correctly support class reshape (when the class of serialized objects >> has >> > changed). >> >> So what do you do when an instance variable was added? Set it to nil >> and hope that everything will continue to work? >> > > In that example yes. But what we meant is that right now the inst var names > are bening encoded also. So at materializatio ntime we will be able to deal > with them. > Not all scnearios are developed right now, but the base is there. At some > point, the only solution has to be done by the user. For example, you should > implement > #updateFrom: aVersion to: anotherVersion: anotherVersion object: anObject > or something like that.... > So...we meant that we store the instVar names and we support some type of > changes. > In fact, we have reified FLInstanceVariablesMapping. So maybe we can do > something with that in a future. > I want to let the user configure an initialization block. > > >> >> > - Serialize ANY kind of object. For the moment there is no object to our >> > knowledge that we cannot serialize and materialize. >> >> Really? You serialize Socket, Process, FileStream and something >> meaningful happens? >> > > Of course there are classes whose instances doesn't make sense once to load > them back in the image. Our comment was literally: we can (ok, we should be > able to) serialize them and materialize them without problem. Now....whether > those instances are correct or still valid and meaningful in the current > image is another problem ;) > One of the future features will be to be able to implement > #postMaterializationAction or something like that could be executed after > materialization. > Sockets could try to get a new socket from the OS, Processes could be > restarted and rescheduled? I have no idea. If you have, please let us know. > Yes... maybe I was too much optimistic with this "ANY". I think you can serialize and deserialize instances of these classes but probably they need something to be "meaningful". > > Thanks for the execellent questions :) > > Thanks! Martin > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >

May 26, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Yoshiki Ohshima

At Wed, 25 May 2011 15:28:00 +0200, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). > The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. Sounds interesting! Can I learn about "hetzel" somewhere? -- Yoshiki

May 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Mariano Martinez Peck

> >> > - Correctly support class reshape (when the class of serialized objects >> has >> > changed). >> >> So what do you do when an instance variable was added? Set it to nil >> and hope that everything will continue to work? >> > Of course. One might hope that the developer that added an instance > variable to a system which had existing instanciated objects would provide > suitable lazy initialization as needed. There is no magic. > Exactly. Read the answer I have just send. > > >> >> > - Serialize ANY kind of object. For the moment there is no object to our >> > knowledge that we cannot serialize and materialize. >> >> Really? You serialize Socket, Process, FileStream and something >> meaningful happens? >> > > Again, no magic. One would hope an interface object that became detached > from it's service would know how to reattach. > > > Exactly. Ideally, a class will be able to implement #prepareToBeSerializer and #postMaterializationAction or stuff like that. So, what we want to provide is the infrastructure, the hooks. Then, we shoud identify those base classes that MUST have something like that like the cases pointed out by Philippe For example, the same happes with Set and Dictionaries. They have to be rehashes once they are materialized. > ttfn, Steve > -- > Steve Cline cline(a)acm.org http://www.clines.org > http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevecline > "Do what's right, and try to get along with people, in that order" > - Ezra Taft Benson > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi Philippe. I don't know why but your emails always go to spam in my account :( > > Actually, the project has already started since several months. Tristan > > Bourgois and I started with the project while doing an internship with > RMoD, > > INRIA. Since a couple of months, Mariano Martinez Peck joined the team, > and > > now he is the official mentor in the SummerTalk. > > > > ESUG website for SummertTalk: > > http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Promotion/SummerTalk/SummerTalk2011 > > > > The website with all the necessary information is here: > > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel > > It even includes slides explaining the algorithm. In addition, a paper is > in > > progress. > > Could you make the slides available in some other format than Flash? > > Ok, Martin will do it and upload them directly to the website. > > For the moment, Fuel already provides the following features: > > > > - Fast pickle format. It is much faster to materialize than to serialize. > > What has led to the conclusion that materialization is more important > than serialization? One of the most important uses we want to do with Fuel (in a future) is to be able to use it for Monticello (to replace mzc). The idea in addition is to be able to boostrap a really small pharo image (hetzel) and be able to load stuff without needing a compiler. I all those cases we assume that you serialize only once or few times and you materialize much more times. But of course, that does not apply to all cases, like you said about session replication. > I can image scenarios when there is a one to one > relationship and scenarios where serialization is more important (e.g. > session replication). > > > - Correctly support class reshape (when the class of serialized objects > has > > changed). > > So what do you do when an instance variable was added? Set it to nil > and hope that everything will continue to work? > In that example yes. But what we meant is that right now the inst var names are bening encoded also. So at materializatio ntime we will be able to deal with them. Not all scnearios are developed right now, but the base is there. At some point, the only solution has to be done by the user. For example, you should implement #updateFrom: aVersion to: anotherVersion: anotherVersion object: anObject or something like that.... So...we meant that we store the instVar names and we support some type of changes. In fact, we have reified FLInstanceVariablesMapping. So maybe we can do something with that in a future. > > > - Serialize ANY kind of object. For the moment there is no object to our > > knowledge that we cannot serialize and materialize. > > Really? You serialize Socket, Process, FileStream and something > meaningful happens? > Of course there are classes whose instances doesn't make sense once to load them back in the image. Our comment was literally: we can (ok, we should be able to) serialize them and materialize them without problem. Now....whether those instances are correct or still valid and meaningful in the current image is another problem ;) One of the future features will be to be able to implement #postMaterializationAction or something like that could be executed after materialization. Sockets could try to get a new socket from the OS, Processes could be restarted and rescheduled? I have no idea. If you have, please let us know. Thanks for the execellent questions :) -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] ESUG SummerTalk - Fuel, binary object serializer

by Steve Cline

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 11:39 PM, Philippe Marschall < philippe.marschall(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Could you make the slides available in some other format than Flash? > I second that. ... > > > - Fast pickle format. It is much faster to materialize than to serialize. > > What has led to the conclusion that materialization is more important > than serialization? I I don't think Martin made a claim about importance, just current implementation behavior. One horse will be faster than another. Currently, the materialization horse is faster than the serialization horse. > > > - Correctly support class reshape (when the class of serialized objects > has > > changed). > > So what do you do when an instance variable was added? Set it to nil > and hope that everything will continue to work? > Of course. One might hope that the developer that added an instance variable to a system which had existing instanciated objects would provide suitable lazy initialization as needed. There is no magic. > > > - Serialize ANY kind of object. For the moment there is no object to our > > knowledge that we cannot serialize and materialize. > > Really? You serialize Socket, Process, FileStream and something > meaningful happens? > Again, no magic. One would hope an interface object that became detached from it's service would know how to reattach. ttfn, Steve -- Steve Cline cline(a)acm.org http://www.clines.org http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevecline "Do what's right, and try to get along with people, in that order" - Ezra Taft Benson

May 25, 2011