March 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:56 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Well :) > > I've been promoting Smalltalk for years, and lately, I've been promoting > all dialects using > > -- my blog > -- screencasts > -- podcasts > > I'd be happy to do more, but my personal budget doesn't allow for much more > :) > I like what you do James. We need more people do a fraction of what you do ! Laurent. > > > On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > > Hi guys > > > > Where were you? > > Where are your bogs, books, videos, and cool Smalltalk open source > projects? > > I mean that this is easy to get frustrated but it is possible to do > things: > > - I wrote Squeak by Example not for me but for newcomers > > - We are writing Pharo by example two for the same. > > - I wrote the Seaside book because it was important for other > people (and because avi was not writing one) > > - we are pushing pharo because we want to create a good open-source > smalltalk. > > > > I came to smalltalk in 1996 when everybody left and I decided to do > something. Now this is not enough but I'm not frustrated > > and we are creating good energy. If people really want they can join and > help or get frustrated. > > > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > James Robertson > http://www.jarober.com > jarober(a)gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

jarober-2 wrote: > > Well :) > > I've been promoting Smalltalk for years, and lately, I've been promoting > all dialects using > > -- my blog > -- screencasts > -- podcasts > > I'd be happy to do more, but my personal budget doesn't allow for much > more :) > Yep, excellent job James! :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384622.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by James Robertson

Well :) I've been promoting Smalltalk for years, and lately, I've been promoting all dialects using -- my blog -- screencasts -- podcasts I'd be happy to do more, but my personal budget doesn't allow for much more :) On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > Where were you? > Where are your bogs, books, videos, and cool Smalltalk open source projects? > I mean that this is easy to get frustrated but it is possible to do things: > - I wrote Squeak by Example not for me but for newcomers > - We are writing Pharo by example two for the same. > - I wrote the Seaside book because it was important for other people (and because avi was not writing one) > - we are pushing pharo because we want to create a good open-source smalltalk. > > I came to smalltalk in 1996 when everybody left and I decided to do something. Now this is not enough but I'm not frustrated > and we are creating good energy. If people really want they can join and help or get frustrated. > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Alexandre Bergel

> There is no need of how-to's for Pier for basic usage (e.g., editing pages, adding menus, doing internal links, adding users). > > I started to use Pier after watching Damien's screencast. I've tried before but could not understand how to do => no courage to go further. May be I'm stupid, but I need them. I am not sure you need a better external documentation for Pier basic usage. But you surely need a better and more intuitive GUI. Just better marketing as Ralph would say. Alexandre > > > > It is wrong to think this is necessary. I have never read the documentation of SimpleCMS, simply there isn't and there is no need to. > > Alexandre > > > > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk over the last twenty years > >> has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was another one!). > >> > >> Steve Edwards > >> (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and Ruby.) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu <mailto:johnson@cs.uiuc.edu>> wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes > >> <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com <mailto:geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > > >> > laurent laffont wrote: > >> >> > >> >> ... > >> >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of > >> documentation, recipes, > >> >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> >> ... > >> >> > >> > > >> > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an > >> application users > >> > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to > >> do a hard > >> > sell :) > >> > >> Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > >> customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > >> it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > >> them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > >> the license, or something else non-technical. > >> > >> No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > >> the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > >> tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > >> is crucial. > >> > >> One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > >> have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > >> on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > >> passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > >> Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > >> books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > >> > >> This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > >> unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > >> community. > >> > >> -Ralph Johnson > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Steve Edwards > >> Escala Ltd. > >> steve(a)escala.co.uk <mailto:steve@escala.co.uk> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Alexandre Bergel

> 2) Yes. I have used and ported Pier, and presented it to non-Smalltalkers, and I have noticed that very small how-to or clarification things could delay me and would undoubtedly affect a non-Smalltalk user. (Some of it was just order of presentation - the how-to's that a non-Smalltalker wants first are not too hard to find - if you're a Smalltalker and so can guess where to look.) It would be good to watch people starting to use Smalltalk's 'best-practice' web suite and see what's slowing them. There is no need of how-to's for Pier for basic usage (e.g., editing pages, adding menus, doing internal links, adding users). It is wrong to think this is necessary. I have never read the documentation of SimpleCMS, simply there isn't and there is no need to. Alexandre > > >> Hi, >> >> I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk over the last twenty years >> has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was another one!). >> >> Steve Edwards >> (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and Ruby.) >> >> >> >> >> On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu <mailto:johnson@cs.uiuc.edu>> wrote: >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes >> <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com <mailto:geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > laurent laffont wrote: >> >> >> >> ... >> >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of >> documentation, recipes, >> >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. >> >> ... >> >> >> > >> > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an >> application users >> > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to >> do a hard >> > sell :) >> >> Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what >> customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting >> it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting >> them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, >> the license, or something else non-technical. >> >> No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes >> the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to >> tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing >> is crucial. >> >> One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers >> have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up >> on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the >> passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or >> Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing >> books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". >> >> This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is >> unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk >> community. >> >> -Ralph Johnson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Steve Edwards >> Escala Ltd. >> steve(a)escala.co.uk <mailto:steve@escala.co.uk> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

laurent laffont wrote: > >> >> Exactly, a UI that's intuitive needs no or minimal documentation >> > > OK. Pier people, could you make an intuitive GUI please ? ;) > > This takes me back to my initial question, what can we do to: a) get more Smalltalkers to use a Smalltalk based blog system ... matter of setting the example :) and; b) attract non-Smalltalkers to try/use a Smalltalk CMS? Smalltalk probably needs at least one top class open source CMS, with the right features, usability, look-and-feel which is easy to host. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384464.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > Alexandre Bergel-5 wrote: > > > >> I started to use Pier after watching Damien's screencast. I've tried > >> before but could not understand how > >> to do => no courage to go further. May be I'm stupid, but I need them. > > > > I am not sure you need a better external documentation for Pier basic > > usage. But you surely need a better and more intuitive GUI. Just better > > marketing as Ralph would say. > > > > Exactly, a UI that's intuitive needs no or minimal documentation > OK. Pier people, could you make an intuitive GUI please ? ;) Laurent. > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384432.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Alexandre Bergel-5 wrote: > >> I started to use Pier after watching Damien's screencast. I've tried >> before but could not understand how >> to do => no courage to go further. May be I'm stupid, but I need them. > > I am not sure you need a better external documentation for Pier basic > usage. But you surely need a better and more intuitive GUI. Just better > marketing as Ralph would say. > Exactly, a UI that's intuitive needs no or minimal documentation -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384432.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

laurent laffont wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> Don't get me wrong Ralph, that's exactly what I meant when I said when >> you have "an application users >> want to use" ... because this IS your market. If you miss this ball on >> this one you can have all the >> documentation, exposure, advertising and whatever in the world, it still >> wont make people want your >> application. >> > > Not sure about this. Documentation, exposure and advertising attracts > people. And among these people some will want to use what you have to > offer. > Yes, absolutely but again: only if you have an application people "want" to use so that's the first priority. laurent laffont wrote: > > I've just played a little with PharoCasts: > - Claire made a skin so the site looks better > - I've started a campain with google adwords (google offered me 80€ to > try) > > results: more visits, more Flattr and several mails from newcommers in my > inbox. > > This is just a little experiment but it seems it works. > Nice, just one remark, the PharoCasts logo doesn't seem to work very well against the dark grey background. laurent laffont wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> I agree and this is where I am trying to help as well. It is extremely >> important but please beware that >> "marketing" is not something only "marketeers" do, everyone involved is >> participating in marketing, starting >> from application's requirements/features, look-and-feel, usability, >> quality, cost/license, documentation, >> support etc ... the whole shebang :) > > I agree. world.st is nice. We need to have more people writing blogs, > tweet, screencasts .... it's not hard, it's not a lot of time. If people > want Smalltalk to succeed, do a small thing every day. > > IMHO everyone and everyday is actually more important than big > project/application. Big project is the consequence. > Thanks and absofreakinlutely :) I actually wrote this post about CMS because world.st is currently a Google Sites website -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384423.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Alexandre Bergel <abergel(a)dcc.uchile.cl>wrote: > > 2) Yes. I have used and ported Pier, and presented it to > non-Smalltalkers, and I have noticed that very small how-to or clarification > things could delay me and would undoubtedly affect a non-Smalltalk user. > (Some of it was just order of presentation - the how-to's that a > non-Smalltalker wants first are not too hard to find - if you're a > Smalltalker and so can guess where to look.) It would be good to watch > people starting to use Smalltalk's 'best-practice' web suite and see what's > slowing them. > > There is no need of how-to's for Pier for basic usage (e.g., editing pages, > adding menus, doing internal links, adding users). I started to use Pier after watching Damien's screencast. I've tried before but could not understand how to do => no courage to go further. May be I'm stupid, but I need them. Laurent. > It is wrong to think this is necessary. I have never read the documentation > of SimpleCMS, simply there isn't and there is no need to. > > Alexandre > > > > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk > over the last twenty years > >> has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was > another one!). > >> > >> Steve Edwards > >> (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and > Ruby.) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu <mailto: > johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu>> wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes > >> <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com <mailto:geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > > >> > laurent laffont wrote: > >> >> > >> >> ... > >> >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of > >> documentation, recipes, > >> >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> >> ... > >> >> > >> > > >> > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an > >> application users > >> > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to > >> do a hard > >> > sell :) > >> > >> Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > >> customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > >> it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > >> them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > >> the license, or something else non-technical. > >> > >> No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > >> the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > >> tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But > marketing > >> is crucial. > >> > >> One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > >> have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > >> on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was > the > >> passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > >> Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > >> books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > >> > >> This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > >> unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > >> community. > >> > >> -Ralph Johnson > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Steve Edwards > >> Escala Ltd. > >> steve(a)escala.co.uk <mailto:steve@escala.co.uk> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email___________________________________________… > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 17, 2011