March 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Andres Valloud

IMO the argument cuts both ways... we also need to look at the work of other communities in a positive light. Unfortunately, as a community, sometimes we tend to look down on anything not done on Smalltalk. But there are some Very Clever People out there, working just as hard as we do... On 3/21/2011 10:32 AM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Julian Fitzell <jfitzell(a)gmail.com > <mailto:jfitzell@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Completely agreed, Helge. > > I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit > as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS > written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what > language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague > peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but > really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, > and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it > was written in. > > So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. > But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it > just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write > CMS plugins? > > > How much more effective to enable one to write plugins in Smalltalk and > then plug them into existing CMS systems. Insularity and lack of > interoperability can hobble Smalltalk. Emphasis on interoperability in > general and the FFI in particular. These are the multipliers that will > cause greater adoption and penetration. Reimplementing an insular and > there-by inferior version of something already in existence is > pointless. Providing a platform that allows us to join in with the > world is essential. > > best, > Eliot > > > Julian > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de > <mailto:hknowak@yahoo.de>> wrote: > > Janko and ariliquin: very well said! > > > > The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based > CMS as > > successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be > reached by > > making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. > Developers > > are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end > user tool > > in companies, organizations and communities. > > > > If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end > user UIs. > > If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target > audience > > is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. > > As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and > then build, > > advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's > needs and > > expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without > ROI people > > will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. > > > > My 2 € Cents > > Helge > > ________________________________ > > Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si > <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>> > > An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > <mailto:esug-list@lists.esug.org>> > > Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr > > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... > > > > Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average > "CMS > > user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, > until user > > is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. > > > > And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over > > others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part > first. There > > is no way to skip that part. > > > > Best regards > > Janko > > > > On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: > >> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In > answer to your > >> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: > >> > >> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own > custom main > >> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even > begun to be > >> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the > concepts that > >> are > >> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily > >> accessible). > >> > >> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an > advantage > >> for > >> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my > point of > >> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even > approach the > >> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast > libraries, I > >> mean > >> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the > >> concepts > >> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires > this as > >> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I > am not > >> spoon > >> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand > and grow to > >> be > >> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, > however my > >> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its > totality, was > >> to be completely lost. > >> > >> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are > designed to > >> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are > >> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer > can delve in > >> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point > and click. > >> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with > navigations etc, > >> also). > >> > >> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End > users and > >> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: > >> > >> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce > publishable > >> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved > by many > >> other > >> CMS projects) > >> > >> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and > powerful > >> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of > the system > >> (already there) > >> > >> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present > these, in > >> a > >> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to > create a CMS > >> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is > Attractive > >> because of its inherent nature and abilities. > >> > >> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within > the CMS. > >> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be > were I find > >> the > >> answers also. > > > > > > -- > > Janko Mivšek > > Aida/Web > > Smalltalk Web Application Server > > http://www.aidaweb.si > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Norbert Hartl

This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea! Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow. Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily. So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead. ranting end. Norbert Am 21.03.2011 um 22:09 schrieb Julian Fitzell: > Agreed. Smalltalk is not helped by trying to show everyone how much > better we can redo what they've already done. We need to borrow what > we can, integrate where we're able, compromise when necessary, and > remain stubbornly unique only where our core values are at stake. That > still leaves us plenty of room to shine and makes it more likely the > other kids will let us play in their sandboxes too. > > Julian > > On 3/21/11, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Julian Fitzell <jfitzell(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Completely agreed, Helge. >>> >>> I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit >>> as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS >>> written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what >>> language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague >>> peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but >>> really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, >>> and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it >>> was written in. >>> >>> So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. >>> But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it >>> just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write >>> CMS plugins? >>> >> >> How much more effective to enable one to write plugins in Smalltalk and then >> plug them into existing CMS systems. Insularity and lack of >> interoperability can hobble Smalltalk. Emphasis on interoperability in >> general and the FFI in particular. These are the multipliers that will >> cause greater adoption and penetration. Reimplementing an insular and >> there-by inferior version of something already in existence is pointless. >> Providing a platform that allows us to join in with the world is essential. >> >> best, >> Eliot >> >> >>> Julian >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: >>>> Janko and ariliquin: very well said! >>>> >>>> The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based CMS as >>>> successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be reached by >>>> making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. >>> Developers >>>> are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end user >>> tool >>>> in companies, organizations and communities. >>>> >>>> If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end user >>> UIs. >>>> If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target >>> audience >>>> is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. >>>> As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and then >>> build, >>>> advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's needs >>> and >>>> expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without ROI >>> people >>>> will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. >>>> >>>> My 2 € Cents >>>> Helge >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> >>>> An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >>>> Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr >>>> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... >>>> >>>> Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average "CMS >>>> user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, until user >>>> is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. >>>> >>>> And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over >>>> others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part first. There >>>> is no way to skip that part. >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> Janko >>>> >>>> On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: >>>>> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In answer to >>> your >>>>> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: >>>>> >>>>> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own custom >>>>> main >>>>> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even begun to >>> be >>>>> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the concepts >>>>> that >>>>> are >>>>> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily >>>>> accessible). >>>>> >>>>> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an advantage >>>>> for >>>>> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my point >>> of >>>>> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even approach >>> the >>>>> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast libraries, I >>>>> mean >>>>> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the >>>>> concepts >>>>> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires this as >>>>> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I am not >>>>> spoon >>>>> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand and grow >>> to >>>>> be >>>>> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, however >>> my >>>>> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its totality, >>> was >>>>> to be completely lost. >>>>> >>>>> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are designed to >>>>> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are >>>>> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer can delve >>> in >>>>> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point and >>> click. >>>>> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with navigations >>> etc, >>>>> also). >>>>> >>>>> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End users >>> and >>>>> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: >>>>> >>>>> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce >>>>> publishable >>>>> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved by many >>>>> other >>>>> CMS projects) >>>>> >>>>> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and >>> powerful >>>>> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of the >>> system >>>>> (already there) >>>>> >>>>> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present these, >>> in >>>>> a >>>>> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a >>>>> CMS >>>>> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is >>>>> Attractive >>>>> because of its inherent nature and abilities. >>>>> >>>>> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within the >>>>> CMS. >>>>> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be were I >>>>> find >>>>> the >>>>> answers also. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Janko Mivšek >>>> Aida/Web >>>> Smalltalk Web Application Server >>>> http://www.aidaweb.si >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Julian Fitzell

Agreed. Smalltalk is not helped by trying to show everyone how much better we can redo what they've already done. We need to borrow what we can, integrate where we're able, compromise when necessary, and remain stubbornly unique only where our core values are at stake. That still leaves us plenty of room to shine and makes it more likely the other kids will let us play in their sandboxes too. Julian On 3/21/11, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Julian Fitzell <jfitzell(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Completely agreed, Helge. >> >> I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit >> as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS >> written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what >> language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague >> peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but >> really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, >> and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it >> was written in. >> >> So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. >> But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it >> just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write >> CMS plugins? >> > > How much more effective to enable one to write plugins in Smalltalk and then > plug them into existing CMS systems. Insularity and lack of > interoperability can hobble Smalltalk. Emphasis on interoperability in > general and the FFI in particular. These are the multipliers that will > cause greater adoption and penetration. Reimplementing an insular and > there-by inferior version of something already in existence is pointless. > Providing a platform that allows us to join in with the world is essential. > > best, > Eliot > > >> Julian >> >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: >> > Janko and ariliquin: very well said! >> > >> > The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based CMS as >> > successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be reached by >> > making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. >> Developers >> > are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end user >> tool >> > in companies, organizations and communities. >> > >> > If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end user >> UIs. >> > If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target >> audience >> > is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. >> > As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and then >> build, >> > advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's needs >> and >> > expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without ROI >> people >> > will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. >> > >> > My 2 € Cents >> > Helge >> > ________________________________ >> > Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> >> > An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >> > Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr >> > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... >> > >> > Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average "CMS >> > user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, until user >> > is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. >> > >> > And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over >> > others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part first. There >> > is no way to skip that part. >> > >> > Best regards >> > Janko >> > >> > On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: >> >> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In answer to >> your >> >> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: >> >> >> >> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own custom >> >> main >> >> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even begun to >> be >> >> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the concepts >> >> that >> >> are >> >> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily >> >> accessible). >> >> >> >> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an advantage >> >> for >> >> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my point >> of >> >> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even approach >> the >> >> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast libraries, I >> >> mean >> >> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the >> >> concepts >> >> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires this as >> >> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I am not >> >> spoon >> >> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand and grow >> to >> >> be >> >> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, however >> my >> >> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its totality, >> was >> >> to be completely lost. >> >> >> >> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are designed to >> >> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are >> >> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer can delve >> in >> >> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point and >> click. >> >> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with navigations >> etc, >> >> also). >> >> >> >> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End users >> and >> >> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: >> >> >> >> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce >> >> publishable >> >> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved by many >> >> other >> >> CMS projects) >> >> >> >> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and >> powerful >> >> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of the >> system >> >> (already there) >> >> >> >> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present these, >> in >> >> a >> >> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a >> >> CMS >> >> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is >> >> Attractive >> >> because of its inherent nature and abilities. >> >> >> >> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within the >> >> CMS. >> >> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be were I >> >> find >> >> the >> >> answers also. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Janko Mivšek >> > Aida/Web >> > Smalltalk Web Application Server >> > http://www.aidaweb.si >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Esug-list mailing list >> > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Esug-list mailing list >> > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Jan Vrany

+1 Jan > > > How much more effective to enable one to write plugins in Smalltalk > and then plug them into existing CMS systems. Insularity and lack of > interoperability can hobble Smalltalk. Emphasis on interoperability in > general and the FFI in particular. These are the multipliers that > will cause greater adoption and penetration. Reimplementing an > insular and there-by inferior version of something already in > existence is pointless. Providing a platform that allows us to join > in with the world is essential. > > > best, > Eliot > > > > Julian > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak > <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > > Janko and ariliquin: very well said! > > > > The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk > based CMS as > > successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be > reached by > > making the system easily accessible to end users, not > developers. Developers > > are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an > end user tool > > in companies, organizations and communities. > > > > If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they > need end user UIs. > > If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their > target audience > > is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. > > As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first > and then build, > > advertize and distribute your offfering to your target > segment's needs and > > expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! > Without ROI people > > will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. > > > > My 2 € Cents > > Helge > > ________________________________ > > Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > > An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > > Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr > > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... > > > > Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the > average "CMS > > user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, > until user > > is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. > > > > And in this customization is where we actually have an > advantage over > > others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part > first. There > > is no way to skip that part. > > > > Best regards > > Janko > > > > On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: > >> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In > answer to your > >> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: > >> > >> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my > own custom main > >> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't > even begun to be > >> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the > concepts that > >> are > >> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is > made easily > >> accessible). > >> > >> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both > an advantage > >> for > >> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, > from my point of > >> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can > even approach the > >> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast > libraries, I > >> mean > >> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, > what the > >> concepts > >> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS > requires this as > >> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT > intuitive. I am not > >> spoon > >> feed everything. I have to research and digest and > understand and grow to > >> be > >> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple > concepts, however my > >> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in > its totality, was > >> to be completely lost. > >> > >> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are > designed to > >> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence > they are > >> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a > programmer can delve in > >> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, > point and click. > >> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with > navigations etc, > >> also). > >> > >> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to > End users and > >> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: > >> > >> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly > produce publishable > >> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet > achieved by many > >> other > >> CMS projects) > >> > >> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives > simple and powerful > >> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation > of the system > >> (already there) > >> > >> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and > present these, in > >> a > >> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to > create a CMS > >> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that > is Attractive > >> because of its inherent nature and abilities. > >> > >> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from > Within the CMS. > >> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should > be were I find > >> the > >> answers also. > > > > > > -- > > Janko Mivšek > > Aida/Web > > Smalltalk Web Application Server > > http://www.aidaweb.si > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Eliot Miranda

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Julian Fitzell <jfitzell(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Completely agreed, Helge. > > I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit > as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS > written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what > language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague > peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but > really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, > and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it > was written in. > > So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. > But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it > just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write > CMS plugins? > How much more effective to enable one to write plugins in Smalltalk and then plug them into existing CMS systems. Insularity and lack of interoperability can hobble Smalltalk. Emphasis on interoperability in general and the FFI in particular. These are the multipliers that will cause greater adoption and penetration. Reimplementing an insular and there-by inferior version of something already in existence is pointless. Providing a platform that allows us to join in with the world is essential. best, Eliot > Julian > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > > Janko and ariliquin: very well said! > > > > The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based CMS as > > successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be reached by > > making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. > Developers > > are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end user > tool > > in companies, organizations and communities. > > > > If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end user > UIs. > > If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target > audience > > is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. > > As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and then > build, > > advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's needs > and > > expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without ROI > people > > will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. > > > > My 2 € Cents > > Helge > > ________________________________ > > Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > > An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > > Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr > > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... > > > > Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average "CMS > > user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, until user > > is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. > > > > And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over > > others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part first. There > > is no way to skip that part. > > > > Best regards > > Janko > > > > On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: > >> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In answer to > your > >> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: > >> > >> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own custom main > >> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even begun to > be > >> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the concepts that > >> are > >> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily > >> accessible). > >> > >> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an advantage > >> for > >> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my point > of > >> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even approach > the > >> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast libraries, I > >> mean > >> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the > >> concepts > >> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires this as > >> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I am not > >> spoon > >> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand and grow > to > >> be > >> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, however > my > >> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its totality, > was > >> to be completely lost. > >> > >> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are designed to > >> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are > >> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer can delve > in > >> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point and > click. > >> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with navigations > etc, > >> also). > >> > >> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End users > and > >> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: > >> > >> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce publishable > >> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved by many > >> other > >> CMS projects) > >> > >> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and > powerful > >> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of the > system > >> (already there) > >> > >> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present these, > in > >> a > >> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a CMS > >> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is Attractive > >> because of its inherent nature and abilities. > >> > >> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within the CMS. > >> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be were I find > >> the > >> answers also. > > > > > > -- > > Janko Mivšek > > Aida/Web > > Smalltalk Web Application Server > > http://www.aidaweb.si > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 21, 2011

IWST @ ESUG 2011 call for papers

by Alain Plantec

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ IWST @ ESUG 2011 International Workshop on Smalltalk Technologies August 23th, 2011 Edinburgh, Scotland http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2011/International-Workshop-on-Smalltalk-Te… CALL FOR PAPERS SUBMISSION DEADLINE : June 17, 2011 Authors of the best accepted papers will be invited to submit extended versions of their papers for publication in a special issue of 'Software: Practice and Experience' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ESUG 2011 Smalltalk joint event IMPORTANT DATES * Submission deadline: June 17, 2011 * Notification deadline: July 15, 2011 GOALS AND SCOPE We are proud to invite submisssions to the International Workshop on Smalltalk Technologies which is held as part of the ESUG 2011 joint event at Edinburgh. The goals of the workshop is to create a forum around advances or experience in Smalltalk and to trigger discussions and exchanges of ideas. Participants are invited to submit short and not-so short research articles. We will not enforce any length restriction. However we expect papers of two kinds: * Short position papers describing emerging ideas. * Long research papers with deeper description of experiments and of research results. TOPICS We welcome contributions on all aspects, theoretical as well as practical, of Smalltalk related topics such as: * Aspect-oriented programming, * Meta-programming and Meta-modeling, * Frameworks, * Interaction with other languages, * Implementation, new dialects or languages implemented in Smalltalk, * Tools, * Design patterns, * Experience reports PUBLICATION Pending ACM approval for Digital Library. Both submissions and final papers must be prepared using the ACM SIGPLAN 10 point format. Templates for Word and LaTeX are available at http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigplan/authorInformation.htm; this site also contains links to useful informations on how to write effective submissions. PROGRAM CHAIRS: * Loïc Lagadec (Labsticc, University of Brest, France) * Alain Plantec (Lisyc, University of Brest, France) PROGRAM COMMITTEE: * Gabriela Arevalo * Marcus Denker * Johan Fabry * Lukas Renggli * Hernan Wilkinson * Damien Cassou * Alexandre Bergel * Jordi Delgado * Johan Brichau

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by James Robertson

>From an external marketing perspective, probably not. What might be useful would be this: -- showing prospective developers that going from "code that I fire from a workspace" to "easy to set up application" doesn't require black magic On Mar 21, 2011, at 7:59 AM, Julian Fitzell wrote: > Completely agreed, Helge. > > I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit > as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS > written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what > language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague > peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but > really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, > and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it > was written in. > > So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. > But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it > just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write > CMS plugins? > > Julian > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: >> Janko and ariliquin: very well said! >> >> The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based CMS as >> successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be reached by >> making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. Developers >> are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end user tool >> in companies, organizations and communities. >> >> If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end user UIs. >> If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target audience >> is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. >> As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and then build, >> advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's needs and >> expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without ROI people >> will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. >> >> My 2 € Cents >> Helge >> ________________________________ >> Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> >> An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >> Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr >> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... >> >> Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average "CMS >> user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, until user >> is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. >> >> And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over >> others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part first. There >> is no way to skip that part. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: >>> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In answer to your >>> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: >>> >>> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own custom main >>> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even begun to be >>> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the concepts that >>> are >>> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily >>> accessible). >>> >>> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an advantage >>> for >>> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my point of >>> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even approach the >>> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast libraries, I >>> mean >>> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the >>> concepts >>> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires this as >>> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I am not >>> spoon >>> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand and grow to >>> be >>> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, however my >>> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its totality, was >>> to be completely lost. >>> >>> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are designed to >>> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are >>> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer can delve in >>> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point and click. >>> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with navigations etc, >>> also). >>> >>> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End users and >>> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: >>> >>> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce publishable >>> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved by many >>> other >>> CMS projects) >>> >>> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and powerful >>> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of the system >>> (already there) >>> >>> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present these, in >>> a >>> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a CMS >>> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is Attractive >>> because of its inherent nature and abilities. >>> >>> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within the CMS. >>> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be were I find >>> the >>> answers also. >> >> >> -- >> Janko Mivšek >> Aida/Web >> Smalltalk Web Application Server >> http://www.aidaweb.si >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Nick Ager

Hi, I created a screen cast showing how to rapidly get up and running on Amazon using an AMI I created a few months ago: http://nickager.com/blog/Screencast-creating-a-new-instance-based-on-pre-co… The AMI is preconfigured with Seaside 3, Pier2 and Gemstone and Gemtools and Pharo based IDE for use within Gemstone. You can deploy the AMI using a Amazon EC2 Micro Instance which is free for a year. The accompanying blog post is: http://nickager.com/blog/Create-a-free-Gemstone-server-in-the-cloud-in-10-m… Cheers Nick

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Julian Fitzell

Completely agreed, Helge. I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it was written in. So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write CMS plugins? Julian On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > Janko and ariliquin: very well said! > > The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based CMS as > successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be reached by > making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. Developers > are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end user tool > in companies, organizations and communities. > > If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end user UIs. > If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target audience > is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. > As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and then build, > advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's needs and > expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without ROI people > will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. > > My 2 € Cents > Helge > ________________________________ > Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... > > Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average "CMS > user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, until user > is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. > > And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over > others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part first. There > is no way to skip that part. > > Best regards > Janko > > On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: >> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In answer to your >> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: >> >> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own custom main >> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even begun to be >> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the concepts that >> are >> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily >> accessible). >> >> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an advantage >> for >> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my point of >> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even approach the >> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast libraries, I >> mean >> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the >> concepts >> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires this as >> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I am not >> spoon >> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand and grow to >> be >> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, however my >> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its totality, was >> to be completely lost. >> >> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are designed to >> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are >> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer can delve in >> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point and click. >> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with navigations etc, >> also). >> >> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End users and >> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: >> >> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce publishable >> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved by many >> other >> CMS projects) >> >> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and powerful >> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of the system >> (already there) >> >> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present these, in >> a >> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a CMS >> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is Attractive >> because of its inherent nature and abilities. >> >> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within the CMS. >> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be were I find >> the >> answers also. > > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Aida/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

March 21, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Smalltalk does already have good blog/cms's, however other than for existing Smalltalk programmers there is no obvious reason why anyone else should invest any time into exploring these. ariliquin wrote: > > ... > > 2. ... The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. > This is another story, but for most users there probably should not be a need to delve into code. ariliquin wrote: > > 3. ... present a user interface, not a programmer interface. > Smalltalk could really use a free, open source CMS with an intuitive UI. How many commercial Smalltalk CMS's are there actually? I can think of a couple but I am not sure how/if they managed to solve the usability issue? Are they built on top of Pier or something else altogether? ariliquin wrote: > > ... > Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present these, in > a simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a CMS > with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is Attractive > because of its inherent nature and abilities. > ... > Exactly, what is remarkable about a Smalltalk CMS ... about Smalltalk, why should someone care? Smalltalk needs more remarkable applications that make the headlines, applications like DabbleDB ... which is now shutting down and made me wonder what will happen with their source code, will it be donated or go down the gurgler? ps. Something which hasn't really been touched yet in this thread is the how/where to host Smalltalk based applications. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3392951.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 21, 2011