March 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Davorin Rusevljan

Well folks, Strategic discussions are nice and welcome, but related to subject of this thread, Nick Ager recently posted link to his very nice blog post with included tutorial how to host Seaside app on EC2. Now, raise your hands, who has tweeted, buzzed, commented or linked to this blog post. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Louis Andriese

Hi Julian, I agree wi most of your points, but would like to add one reason I see to add a usability layer on top of Pier: Most larger shops have separated content and application departments. Smalltalk indeed excells as an environment for developing complex business applications and, thanks to Seaside, delivering those complex applications to the web. However, mpst of the times those complex components need to be embedded in some kind of semi-static content which is maintained by the marketing department. At the moment, there is no decent way to provide that end user department with a reasonable alternative on a smalltalk-basis. Thus, the only feasible solution for embedding a seaside component in a set of webpages is the dreaded iframe. If we had a decent (not perfect, but decent) end-user cms on top of seaside, we could fix that. And not using iframes would make a lot of things (seo, component sizing etc) a whole lot simpler. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a top of the bill technology demonstration, but merely of a usable cms from an end user perspective. I for one would like to spend some time at esug looking into that. Not being a developer makes me an excellent customer, I guess :) Kind regards, Louis Op 22 mrt. 2011 om 10:23 heeft Julian Fitzell <jfitzell(a)gmail.com> het volgende geschreven: > Hi Norbert, > > I disagree entirely. This thread isn't sad at all; it shows how > passionate this community is about Smalltalk and that people want to > talk about how to share this passion with as many others as possible. > > Suggesting that one can do marketing without talking about marketing > is, in my view, nonsensical. People are naturally free to do whatever > they like, but the fact that they are having this discussion suggests > to me that they are not quite sure what to do and would like to > discuss ideas with others. They would like to focus their passion on > ideas they believe will be successful, rather than doing whatever > first comes to their minds. Presumably this discussions will involve > some disagreement rather than a big love fest of mutual affirmation. > "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?"? I find that a > very very strange sentiment... > > Since most of use here are developers, I think we are not used to > thinking about the issues of markets and messages and can therefore > benefit from all the groupthink we can get. Obviously writing a CMS is > *an* idea - that's by definition; but this particular idea was being > discussed in the very specific context of making Smalltalk wildly > popular. Do you think it will? > > I'm not 110% certain of anything but looking at the idea of a CMS: > * there are many established players already in the market, with > mindshare and a big headstart > * there are probably thousands of plugins already written for the > existing platforms > * we are less likely to be successful precisely *because* we would be > using an uncommon language > * our deployment story is still poor > * users of a CMS are generally not going to be users of its underlying > programming language > * Smalltalk is really good at modelling complex domains and CMSes (at > least the popular ones) are really quite simple - this isn't an area > where Smalltalk is going to give a huge advantage over competing > languages > > The award-winning Cmsbox is evidence that you can create a great CMS > in Smalltalk. But that's not the point. You don't need to read The > Tipping Point to see that we would be entering a saturated market with > little competitive advantage; even if we were successful, we'd have > been largely targeting the wrong people. > > (By the way, your suggestion of attracting developers with good tools > sounds like one reasonable focus. From what I've seen, good developer > tools are in fact still "market breaking" - this used to be one of > Smalltalk's strengths and is a perfect opportunity to borrow, > integrate, and innovate...) > > Julian > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >> This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea! >> >> Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow. >> >> Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily. >> >> So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead. >> >> ranting end. >> >> Norbert >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Niall Ross-2 wrote: > > 1) GSoC Smalltalk project in the area of CMS: needs Pier-capable > mentor(s). > As far as I understand it we were not accepted for the GSoC this year -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3395992.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Joachim Tuchel wrote: > > ... > I'm afraid the idea of having to provide a killer app that will show the > world how cool Smalltalk is will not work. If the app is great, nobody > will ask: What's it made with? My blog is hosted on Wordpress.com, and I > must admit I neither have an idea nor care what language it's written in. > My time is too limited to care. > I disagree on this one. There are a lot of similarities between Smallthought Systems/DabbleDB/Seaside/Squeak and 37Signals/Rails/Ruby where both have somehow kick-started a wider community who did care. Joachim Tuchel wrote: > > But if we manage to make our Smalltalk environments a nice place to stay > at for programmers, we can probably attract more Smalltalkers. > Agree Joachim Tuchel wrote: > > It's not enough to have the very best of languages when we use tools that > look&feel as if they were frozen for 20 years. > ... > Agree that the IDE is dated and un-intuitive. Joachim Tuchel wrote: > > We need a better rich client platform than Eclipse, Xcode or VisualStudio > and we need full support of modern GUI standards. No matter how much > better a Smalltalk debugger is than a Eclipse's or Xcode's debugger, most > developers won't give it a chance to prove it, because it's somewhat > strange or at least different. > Different is not always bad, but it needs to be intuitive and appealing enough for newcomers to give it a go. Joachim Tuchel wrote: > > So my idea would be a platform inspired by Eclipse's rich client platform, > which both helps improve the Smalltalk IDE itself, make it extensible and > at the same time enables modern looking GUI apps with little effort. > I have a feeling we need to focus on web apps and I am unsure the world needs another Eclipse ( http://news.squeak.org/2008/10/31/smalltalk-on-eclipse/ IBM tried something like this back in 2008 ). Joachim Tuchel wrote: > > ...if the Smalltalk tool is great, great applications will follow. He's > absolutely right. > Probably ps. I have to say that I did not expect all this from posting an idea to create a great Smalltalk blog/cms :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3395985.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Niall Ross

Dear Goran et al., I agree with Julian's points and yours. Göran Krampe wrote: > IMHO a more exciting discussion can start if someone says "I want to > do X" and then see what people think of it and if they want to join in > and so on. So let's return the thread to the three proposals actually made so far IIRC. The first two are complementary - we could do both: 1) GSoC Smalltalk project in the area of CMS: needs Pier-capable mentor(s). 2) ESUG workshop/tutorial in Edinburgh in August: - start from Pier, plus GSoC output and/or other add-ons as appropriate: this thread has mentioned Nick's Amazon get-started videos and Reza's add-ons - hopefully we will have rubyists, newbies, etc. there, also CMS researchers from the host - find out what blocks them - also find out what questions an experienced Smalltalker meets getting started in Pier whose answers are not easily found in the existing explanations I think this could make an OK tutorial for newbies / non-Smalltalkers that was also useful to Smalltalkers who had never used Pier. It could be a tutorial during Camp Smalltalk or an event in the conference (or both). I will be (one of the) recorder(s) for (2) if asked. Someone needs to say, "I'll teach it". If (1) is designed to prepare the way for (2), great. Ideally, a mentor for (1) would run the tutorial/workshop (2). The third idea reasied in the thread was an alternative 3) Make it easier to write Smalltalk plugins for some popular CMS. If someone _has_ written a Smalltalk plugins to existing CMS, or has knowledge of what that would require, they should write it up (or talk about it at ESUG, of course :-) ). Yours faithfully Niall Ross ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Joachim Tuchel

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Göran Krampe

Hi all! I agree with Julian in all his points (thus no quoting!) but just wanted to say one more thing in this thread: Although it is fun and engaging to talk about "we should do X", and I really don't want to suppress that, it almost never ends up being the driving force for someone to actually do X. IMHO a more exciting discussion can start if someone says "I want to do X" and then see what people think of it and if they want to join in and so on. Just my 2 öre. regards, Göran

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Julian Fitzell

Hi Norbert, I disagree entirely. This thread isn't sad at all; it shows how passionate this community is about Smalltalk and that people want to talk about how to share this passion with as many others as possible. Suggesting that one can do marketing without talking about marketing is, in my view, nonsensical. People are naturally free to do whatever they like, but the fact that they are having this discussion suggests to me that they are not quite sure what to do and would like to discuss ideas with others. They would like to focus their passion on ideas they believe will be successful, rather than doing whatever first comes to their minds. Presumably this discussions will involve some disagreement rather than a big love fest of mutual affirmation. "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?"? I find that a very very strange sentiment... Since most of use here are developers, I think we are not used to thinking about the issues of markets and messages and can therefore benefit from all the groupthink we can get. Obviously writing a CMS is *an* idea - that's by definition; but this particular idea was being discussed in the very specific context of making Smalltalk wildly popular. Do you think it will? I'm not 110% certain of anything but looking at the idea of a CMS: * there are many established players already in the market, with mindshare and a big headstart * there are probably thousands of plugins already written for the existing platforms * we are less likely to be successful precisely *because* we would be using an uncommon language * our deployment story is still poor * users of a CMS are generally not going to be users of its underlying programming language * Smalltalk is really good at modelling complex domains and CMSes (at least the popular ones) are really quite simple - this isn't an area where Smalltalk is going to give a huge advantage over competing languages The award-winning Cmsbox is evidence that you can create a great CMS in Smalltalk. But that's not the point. You don't need to read The Tipping Point to see that we would be entering a saturated market with little competitive advantage; even if we were successful, we'd have been largely targeting the wrong people. (By the way, your suggestion of attracting developers with good tools sounds like one reasonable focus. From what I've seen, good developer tools are in fact still "market breaking" - this used to be one of Smalltalk's strengths and is a perfect opportunity to borrow, integrate, and innovate...) Julian On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea! > > Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow. > > Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily. > > So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead. > > ranting end. > > Norbert >

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Norbert Hartl wrote: > > This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about .... > Thanks Norbert :) Norbert Hartl wrote: > > ... From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a > value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people > with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need > something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking > ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. > Good applications will follow. > Agree, Smalltalk needs applications that stand out, something that attracts people's attention ... and yes, a great user friendly blog/cms was only "an" idea :) Norbert Hartl wrote: > > ... > I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) > time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. > Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead. > > ranting end. > I am not even a programmer (well I was, but that's almost 7 years ago now). I have been following Smalltalk in my spare time for about 6 years now, mainly because I have a feeling that Smalltalk has great potential. From a software engineering point of view I really like how a lot of things are done, but then when it comes to intuitiveness, usability, look-and-feel ... and you know the "je ne sais quoi" it lacks ... it really lacks a lot. So, other than the "one" idea above ... what other ideas are out there to attract more people to Smalltalk? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3395809.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 22, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 12:48 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it > became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why > everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out > that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against > someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't > need _one_ idea! > > Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't > help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or > the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current > smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in > the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, > pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to > enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do > marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the > market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and > attract developers. Good applications will follow. > Mostly agree. But good tools is not enough to attract developers. We have to show how good they are - that means more blogs, tweet, screencasts, documentation .... so newbies can learn how to use them. For example I know that in Pharo there are powerful tools - I don't know how to use them, there's almost no comment, documentation, .... Metacello has done it right. Help, recipes, tutorials are here - I can learn advanced stuff in a couple of hours. A community is like a kitchen garden. You have to do a little everyday to make it grow. Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. > Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it > is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of > the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are > inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good > idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success > works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit > in. But you can't copy success stories easily. > Open source doesn't mean no marketing - indeed to me it seems successful open source project has really good marketing from their user / developer base: people using it and write about it to say it's great and how to use it, make it easy to setup. LAMP stack is a good example I think: they were not blasting technologies, but were easy to setup, lot of tutorials, easy to get in. So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the > motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional > smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things > smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and > passion I could do J2EE instead. > Oh I'm doing mostly PHP for one year ;) But the more I learn about Pharo the more it get into my workflow. It seems to me it's easier to get into Smalltalk now than it was two years ago when I discovered it. Cheers, Laurent ranting end. > > Norbert > > Am 21.03.2011 um 22:09 schrieb Julian Fitzell: > > > Agreed. Smalltalk is not helped by trying to show everyone how much > > better we can redo what they've already done. We need to borrow what > > we can, integrate where we're able, compromise when necessary, and > > remain stubbornly unique only where our core values are at stake. That > > still leaves us plenty of room to shine and makes it more likely the > > other kids will let us play in their sandboxes too. > > > > Julian > > > > On 3/21/11, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Julian Fitzell <jfitzell(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >>> Completely agreed, Helge. > >>> > >>> I also have to wonder if the Smalltalk community would really benefit > >>> as much as everyone seems to think from having a "successful CMS > >>> written in Smalltalk". Does anyone who uses Wordpress care much what > >>> language it is written in? I guess there could be some vague > >>> peripheral benefit in terms of the appearance of acceptability, but > >>> really the only way to have a successful CMS is to write a good CMS, > >>> and at that point people are judging the product, not the language it > >>> was written in. > >>> > >>> So, sure, someone could go create a great, free CMS with Smalltalk. > >>> But why do we as a community feel a need to champion the idea? Is it > >>> just that we want to be able to use our favourite language to write > >>> CMS plugins? > >>> > >> > >> How much more effective to enable one to write plugins in Smalltalk and > then > >> plug them into existing CMS systems. Insularity and lack of > >> interoperability can hobble Smalltalk. Emphasis on interoperability in > >> general and the FFI in particular. These are the multipliers that will > >> cause greater adoption and penetration. Reimplementing an insular and > >> there-by inferior version of something already in existence is > pointless. > >> Providing a platform that allows us to join in with the world is > essential. > >> > >> best, > >> Eliot > >> > >> > >>> Julian > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > >>>> Janko and ariliquin: very well said! > >>>> > >>>> The original poster's intention was to create a Smalltalk based CMS as > >>>> successful as the leading open source ones. This can only be reached > by > >>>> making the system easily accessible to end users, not developers. > >>> Developers > >>>> are a minority. They don't decide on what will be used as an end user > >>> tool > >>>> in companies, organizations and communities. > >>>> > >>>> If we think Pier and Scribo shall be end user tools they need end user > >>> UIs. > >>>> If we don't think so we have to accept the fact that their target > >>> audience > >>>> is the Smalltalk fraction of the developer community. > >>>> As Ralph said: marketing is thinking about your market first and then > >>> build, > >>>> advertize and distribute your offfering to your target segment's needs > >>> and > >>>> expectations. And don't forget your return on investment! Without ROI > >>> people > >>>> will soon leave because no-one can afford to just spend. > >>>> > >>>> My 2 € Cents > >>>> Helge > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> Von: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > >>>> An: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > >>>> Gesendet: Montag, den 21. März 2011, 0:02:48 Uhr > >>>> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ... > >>>> > >>>> Well said, thanks! I also beleive that a right way to the average "CMS > >>>> user" friendly CMS is to hide Smalltalk as long as possible, until > user > >>>> is encouraged enough to customize his website in depth. > >>>> > >>>> And in this customization is where we actually have an advantage over > >>>> others. But, we need to build that non-Smalltalk front part first. > There > >>>> is no way to skip that part. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards > >>>> Janko > >>>> > >>>> On 20. 03. 2011 23:49, ariliquin wrote: > >>>>> I am a smalltalk newbie and interested in Smalltalk CMS. In answer to > >>> your > >>>>> question, from my point of view, I would like to say: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. The ability to achieve something functional, say a my own custom > >>>>> main > >>>>> page, quickly and easily, is very encouraging (I haven't even begun > to > >>> be > >>>>> able to do this in Pier etc, I am still wading through the concepts > >>>>> that > >>>>> are > >>>>> being presented, as opposed to the functionality that is made easily > >>>>> accessible). > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. The CMS is built on top of the Smalltalk platform, both an > advantage > >>>>> for > >>>>> obvious reasons, yet a big disadvantage for this reason, from my > point > >>> of > >>>>> view: I have to be familiar with Smalltalk BEFORE I can even approach > >>> the > >>>>> CMS. I don't mean familiar with the finer details and vast libraries, > I > >>>>> mean > >>>>> familiar with the main screen and how to simple navigate, what the > >>>>> concepts > >>>>> are, the terminologies etc etc etc etc. NO other CMS requires this as > >>>>> obviously as Pier. The Smalltalk interface is NOT intuitive. I am not > >>>>> spoon > >>>>> feed everything. I have to research and digest and understand and > grow > >>> to > >>>>> be > >>>>> able to do anything here. Yes, there are many simple concepts, > however > >>> my > >>>>> experience was, upon seeing the Smalltalk environment in its > totality, > >>> was > >>>>> to be completely lost. > >>>>> > >>>>> 3. Every other CMS like Wordpress, Concrete 5, Joomla are designed to > >>>>> present a user interface, not a programmer interface. Hence they are > >>>>> attractive to users immediately, in general. Yes a programmer can > delve > >>> in > >>>>> and do things, but a user can get things they want done, point and > >>> click. > >>>>> (Although some of the interfaces can be overwhelming with navigations > >>> etc, > >>>>> also). > >>>>> > >>>>> If you want a SmallTalk CMS that is Amazingly Attractive to End users > >>> and > >>>>> Programmers, this would be a good start for me: > >>>>> > >>>>> Provide a USER interface that can be used to quickly produce > >>>>> publishable > >>>>> content (a lot of work, as many have pointed out, yet achieved by > many > >>>>> other > >>>>> CMS projects) > >>>>> > >>>>> Provide an underlying Programmer interface that gives simple and > >>> powerful > >>>>> access to the framework to allow extension and manipulation of the > >>> system > >>>>> (already there) > >>>>> > >>>>> Identify the STRENGTHS of smalltalk, LEVERAGE these and present > these, > >>> in > >>>>> a > >>>>> simple and meaningful way, to End USERS and programmers, to create a > >>>>> CMS > >>>>> with capabilities that others cannot match easily and that is > >>>>> Attractive > >>>>> because of its inherent nature and abilities. > >>>>> > >>>>> Provide Tutorials, Video How-To's and Documentation from Within the > >>>>> CMS. > >>>>> This is were I am wondering how to do things, this should be were I > >>>>> find > >>>>> the > >>>>> answers also. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Janko Mivšek > >>>> Aida/Web > >>>> Smalltalk Web Application Server > >>>> http://www.aidaweb.si > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Esug-list mailing list > >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Esug-list mailing list > >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Esug-list mailing list > >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 22, 2011