March 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by stephane ducasse

+1 This is all my point. We can all at our own level gets an impact! > Well folks, > > Strategic discussions are nice and welcome, but related to subject of > this thread, Nick Ager recently posted link to his very nice blog post > with included tutorial how to host Seaside app on EC2. > > Now, raise your hands, who has tweeted, buzzed, commented or linked to > this blog post. > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Steven Kelly

Stéphane Ducasse wrote > this is fun that you shoot on us I guess you really know I'm not shooting at anyone, and you don't need to react negatively. I stand by my comments, both praise and (hopefully insightful and constructive) criticism, and welcome any debate on the actual points. > while you were never able to come and present your products > at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. You've been good at asking me to come over the years - well done! As I've replied each time, I don't like travel, and I have to do a lot of it for our business. I've presented MetaEdit+ at the Cincom Smalltalk conference in Frankfurt, and many times at OOPSLA and ECOOP. Presenting at those places has made commercial sense; presenting at ESUG hasn't seemed to - mostly because the attendees aren't potential customers. That's just the way companies make decisions. I actually discussed entering MetaEdit+ for the ESUG innovation competition one year, and the other judges were open to a commercial product, but you didn't like the idea (which is fine). I'm glad that as a result of that discussion the competition is open to all now. > Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something > for others (I mean others than our little business). I don't do much for ESUG, but in my small way I try and help the Smalltalk community. I love Smalltalk but hate travel, so most of what I do is in the virtual world - helping others on discussion lists, and publishing things in the Cincom public repository. Admittedly all VW not Squeak/Pharo, so less visible to you, but hopefully still useful. If it's any comfort, last week I sent out posters and CFPs for ESUG2011 to several universities and mailing lists. All the best, Steve "to give and not to count the cost; to fight and not to heed the wounds; to toil and not to seek for rest; to labour and not to ask for any reward" > On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are > doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is > programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers > talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've > seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way > Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with > a new name. > > > > If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do > with some love: > > 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl > > 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A > place for Jordi to write, ok!" > > 3) The search box does nothing > > 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not > defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) > > > > Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with > outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're > considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand > this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people > have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug > report. > > > > All the best, > > Steve > > -- > > Steven Kelly, Ph.D. > > Co-President and CTO, MetaCase > > Tel.: > > +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 > > Fax: > > +358 420 648 606 > > Cell: > > +358 40 7331 286 > > Web: > > www.metacase.com > > Blog: > > www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView > > Email: > > steven.kelly(a)metacase.com > > > > SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 > > MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by stephane ducasse

> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. I'm convinced about that but how could it be Smalltalk with Smalltalk. If you have the solution I'm all ears. Stef

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Janko Mivšek

Talking to me but also to us: we are lacking broader professionalism from time to time and our websites (mines included) mirror that lack. This part is also hard to understand for us developers, we can be professional in our field, but harder in fields like "public relations" (good meaning of that term). If we accept at least critics from others, this would be a good first step ... Best regards Janko On 25. 03. 2011 10:27, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Steven > > this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while > I'm sure that it would have helped the community. > Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). > > Stef > > > On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > >> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >> >> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >> 3) The search box does nothing >> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >> >> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >> >> All the best, >> Steve >> -- >> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >> >> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi andrew > After this email, none of you will have to put up with me, because I've already removed myself from the ESUG list. > > I find this email chain, like the barcelona conference, extremely sad. I went to the conference hoping that I could tell my employer that Smalltalk is alive and strong. Why is it not more alive now than in 1998? I think that the community is in a much better shape now. > The conference like this email shows it is weak and divided. Adding more flavors of Smalltalk that are not 100% compatible with what already exists only dilutes the Smalltalk world. So what is the idea? Get stuck with a language that will never change and has no vision because some people do not have the vision for their implementation? If this is what you propose we can just close the shop now. > Creating email chains, like this one, that drags in people like me, longing to see progress, but only emphasizing the fractures in the Smalltalk community, want to cry. What have you been doing for Smalltalk around you in the past years? You know just drinking a beer with colleagues and have a show me your projects is a start. I created the swiss smalltalk user groups, pushed esug, support students, wrote books, .... so of course not everybody should do the same but you can ask yourselves what you want and how to help. > The Smalltalk community should have worked to keep the .NET interface alive, > but it was allowed to die at a version 1. I do not know the story. I cannot compile any .net code on any of my machine. Now of course microsoft and java are big player. > Because of incompatible Smalltalk flavors, I'm stuck on VA which still lacks Unicode support. The result is that my employer is moving all new development to. C# .NET using MVC, Fluent NHibernate, S#arp Architecture, and jQuery. I just came back from a .NET conference that showed a strong unified community. Many of them are still trying to understand OOD, but they are learning and supporting each other. > Out of six Smalltalk developers here, I am the last one dedicated to Smalltalk development. When there is no more Smalltalk to be done, my programming days will end. Sad. VA was nearly killed by IBM and they played it well not selling their smalltalk part to google. We will see how they will play it in the future. Now we cannot move moutains. If people with power do not play the way the community benefits from it than this is like that. Now microsoft has a lot of money and we do not have it. > I've lost hope, but wish Smalltalk the best.

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

Steven this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). Stef On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. > > If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: > 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl > 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" > 3) The search box does nothing > 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) > > Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. > > All the best, > Steve > -- > Steven Kelly, Ph.D. > Co-President and CTO, MetaCase > Tel.: > +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 > Fax: > +358 420 648 606 > Cell: > +358 40 7331 286 > Web: > www.metacase.com > Blog: > www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView > Email: > steven.kelly(a)metacase.com > > SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 > MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Tim Mackinnon

> This takes me back to my initial question, what can we do to: > a) get more Smalltalkers to use a Smalltalk based blog system ... Guys - this has been a very interesting thread. I'll put my hand up and say I feel guilty not using a Smalltalk based blog/website. I briefly considered it a few years ago when I was setting up a personal site but it was just so easy to pay $10/month and have a 1 click install of Joomla - which I played with for 1 hour, bought a nice template (another hour) and then published some content. Having said all this, for a Cms it's crazily hard to link to your own content (but it has an easy wysiwyg js editor that my partner can use to add content for me). But reading this, I would love to start again and would like a preconfigufed starting point to get my toes wet. Something setup with no obvious security flaws and a nice template (maybe 3) that can take a bit of load if needed. If there was this, it would be a no brainer (I have resolved to watch the mentioned screencast and give it a spin taking some notes). In this world I would then shame all my friends who know any smalltalk to take the "blogtalk" challenge! Of course in this world the further draw for me would be that it would be easy to then customise things with components that it's easy for me to write (particularly with our great environment). The icing on the cake would be an easy system to download/upload these components like you can in firefox (eg a gallery of them). For the latter point - I was quite taken by Avi's demos where they could do clever things with data using the power of smalltalk. To me, with a gemstone database backing things, plugins could do very powerful things like wrap all your hyperlinks in a tracker link etc. Or back out cleanly if you uninstall them. I notice it's quite nice on an iPhone that's it's easy (well could be better but...) to download things and try them and remove them if you don't like them. I think this would make the "blogtalk" challenge quite palletable. I think we are close to this world, as many pieces are there but we would need to get the same energy around it as with the core Pharo team. I've read lots of moans on this thread - and should we or shouldn't we, but I think it would be a lovely project even if it was just for us (but I bet it would attract others too). Tim

March 23, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Niall Ross

Dear Andy, >I find this email chain, like the barcelona conference, extremely sad. I went to the conference hoping that I could tell my employer that Smalltalk is alive and strong. The conference like this email shows it is weak and divided. ... I'm stuck on VA which still lacks Unicode support. > As regards this email chain, I mostly agree - it has become long without achieving much focus. (But perhaps one or more of the positive suggestions will turn into something.) Next year's conference is in Edinburgh and will have, amongst other things, - a stronger VA presence (you are aware that Instantiations has hired and has increased its focus on Smalltalk) - an increased focus on pre-conference advertising to make the outside world aware of us, get more newbies / ex-Smalltalkers in How well it will work, I don't know, but we're certainly going to try. While my summary is less harsh than yours, I was aware of the features at the Barcelona conference that you noticed. - Were you at Brest or Amsterdam? - In these difficult times, the Smalltalk activities of the major vendors, far from collapsing, are in fact doing well. That is worth noting. Meanwhile, whether you come or not, I hope you like the poster for the ESUG 2011 conference, available in hi-res JPEG and PDF at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7726739/ESUG_Promo.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7726739/ESUG_Promo.pdf and can display it, if only for the picture of Edinburgh, which I think is pretty good. Yours faithfully Niall Ross ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 23, 2011

Please display the poster for ESUG 2011 wherever developers gather

by Niall Ross

The poster for the ESUG 2011 conference is available in hi-res JPEG and PDF at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7726739/ESUG_Promo.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7726739/ESUG_Promo.pdf It names some of Smalltalk's technical and commercial achievements. It will (I hope) be a draw for Smalltalkers and also for some Rubyists (it mentions MagLev), for general dynamic language people, and for some general developers interested in something with this history of achievement, past and present (it also notes there will be intro workshops and tutorials for interested non-Smalltalkers). Please display where you can in companies, universities, user groups, etc. - wherever developers congregate. Thanks Niall Ross ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 23, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Sean Allen

2011/3/22 Göran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se>: > Hi all! > > I agree with Julian in all his points (thus no quoting!) but just wanted to > say one more thing in this thread: > > Although it is fun and engaging to talk about "we should do X", and I really > don't want to suppress that, it almost never ends up being the driving force > for someone to actually do X. > > IMHO a more exciting discussion can start if someone says "I want to do X" > and then see what people think of it and if they want to join in and so on. > > Just my 2 öre. > +1 although it helps if people want to coordinate on 'doing X'.

March 23, 2011