March 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by James Robertson

The main problem the community has is one that's common across (non major corporate funded) Open Source projects - developers tend to build something right up to the point where it's useful for their purposes, and then they top. Issues, problems, bugs - we work around those as part of our workflow. This isn't so much anyone's fault as just the way things are. On Mar 25, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > I am slowly slowly starting to think that maaaaaaaybe I shouldn't have > mentioned anything about a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS .. now everyone, > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take_a_chill_pill take a chill pill have a > beer or whatever tickles your fancy and enjoy your weekend :) > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3405652.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

I am slowly slowly starting to think that maaaaaaaybe I shouldn't have mentioned anything about a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS .. now everyone, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take_a_chill_pill take a chill pill have a beer or whatever tickles your fancy and enjoy your weekend :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3405652.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Steven Kelly

HwaJongOh wrote: > > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy > > I cannot figure out James's words to make sense, yet. I guess it means "don't complain that something is broken: fix it, or make something better". That's good advice, but of course sometimes it's not possible - I may not have the knowledge, skill or right to fix it. In that case, reporting the problem to the owner is sensible. It helps to say nice things about the owner and his product at the start and end of the report, and report the bug calmly and objectively. If that's advice for the bug finder, then advice for the code owner is of course "don't shoot the messenger". We need to distinguish between the fact that there's a bug (which is bad) and the fact that we now at least know about the bug (which is good). We made the bug (bad us!), and the bug reporter told us about it (good for him!), so we should grit our teeth and thank the bug reporter. ...and of course, I find this advice as hard to follow as anyone else! Steve

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by James Foster

On Mar 25, 2011, at 2:40 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > VA was nearly killed by IBM and they played it well not selling their smalltalk part to google. > We will see how they will play it in the future. You seem a bit confused here. IBM sold (most of) its Smalltalk business to Instantiations several years ago and Instantiations sold its Java business to Google last year. Given that, I'm not sure if it is IBM that you think "nearly killed" VA, or Instantiations, which "played it well" by keeping Smalltalk. James

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by HwaJongOh

2011. 3. 25., 저녁 9:44, laurent laffont 작성: > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy If I invent something it right after predicting it, it will happen with high probability. Therefore Alan Kay's famous words make sense. I cannot figure out James's words to make sense, yet. Best Regards

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 March 2011 13:44, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Stéphane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> Yes >> There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the >> community. >> Let us stand up and build the next generation. > > yep :) > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy > Laurent. > Indeed. No time to be desperate. I have a full plate of todos now. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Yes > There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the community. > Let us stand up and build the next generation. > yep :) "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy Laurent. > > Stef > > > Dear Stephane, > > one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is > by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till > later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. > > > > It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages > were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is > better than fast, right. > > > > So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or > may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, > but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. > > > > Yours faithfully > > Niall Ross > > > > Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > > >> Steven > >> > >> this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and > present your products at ESUG while > >> I'm sure that it would have helped the community. Now I like all the > talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others > than our little business). > >> > >> Stef > >> > >> > >> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > >> > >> > >>> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are > doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers > talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about > programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few > times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve > major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. > >>> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do > with some love: > >>> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl > >>> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A > place for Jordi to write, ok!" > >>> 3) The search box does nothing > >>> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not > defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) > >>> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with > outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're > considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this > is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put > into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. > >>> All the best, > >>> Steve > >>> -- > >>> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. > >>> Co-President and CTO, MetaCase > >>> Tel.: +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 > >>> Fax: +358 420 648 606 > >>> Cell: +358 40 7331 286 > >>> Web: www.metacase.com > >>> Blog: www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView > >>> Email: steven.kelly(a)metacase.com > >>> > >>> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 > >>> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Esug-list mailing list > >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email___________________________________________… > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email___________________________________________… > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

Yes There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the community. Let us stand up and build the next generation. Stef > Dear Stephane, > one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. > > It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is better than fast, right. > > So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. > > Yours faithfully > Niall Ross > > Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Steven >> >> this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while >> I'm sure that it would have helped the community. Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). >> >> Stef >> >> >> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: >> >> >>> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >>> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >>> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >>> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >>> 3) The search box does nothing >>> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >>> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >>> All the best, >>> Steve >>> -- >>> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >>> Co-President and CTO, MetaCase >>> Tel.: +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 >>> Fax: +358 420 648 606 >>> Cell: +358 40 7331 286 >>> Web: www.metacase.com >>> Blog: www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView >>> Email: steven.kelly(a)metacase.com >>> >>> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >>> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

> Stéphane Ducasse wrote >> this is fun that you shoot on us > > I guess you really know I'm not shooting at anyone, and you don't need to react negatively. I stand by my comments, both praise and (hopefully insightful and constructive) criticism, and welcome any debate on the actual points. > >> while you were never able to come and present your products >> at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. > > You've been good at asking me to come over the years - well done! As I've replied each time, I don't like travel, and I have to do a lot of it for our business. I've presented MetaEdit+ at the Cincom Smalltalk conference in Frankfurt, and many times at OOPSLA and ECOOP. Presenting at those places has made commercial sense; presenting at ESUG hasn't seemed to - mostly because the attendees aren't potential customers. That's just the way companies make decisions. as I already told you, I imagine that Smalltalk developers do not leave in a bubble with only Smalltalk teams and products and they can probably push your product to Java people because they know that this is in Smalltalk. But I can understand that you do not like to travel since I do not like that either. Now this is up to you to present or not MetaEdit+ at ESUG. Stef

March 25, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Niall Ross

Dear Stephane, one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is better than fast, right. So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. Yours faithfully Niall Ross Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >Steven > >this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while >I'm sure that it would have helped the community. >Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). > >Stef > > >On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > >>It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >> >>If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >>1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >>2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >>3) The search box does nothing >>4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >> >>Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >> >>All the best, >>Steve >>-- >>Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >>Co-President and CTO, MetaCase >>Tel.: >>+358 14 641 000 ext. 21 >>Fax: >>+358 420 648 606 >>Cell: >>+358 40 7331 286 >>Web: >>www.metacase.com >>Blog: >>www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView >>Email: >>steven.kelly(a)metacase.com >> >>SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >>MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Esug-list mailing list >>Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >______________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 25, 2011