March 2011 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > Ralph Johnson wrote: > > > No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes the > > marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to tell who > > is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > > is crucial. > > > > Don't get me wrong Ralph, that's exactly what I meant when I said when you > have "an application users want to use" ... because this IS your market. > If > you miss this ball on this one you can have all the documentation, > exposure, > advertising and whatever in the world, it still wont make people want your > application. > Not sure about this. Documentation, exposure and advertising attracts people. And among these people some will want to use what you have to offer. I've just played a little with PharoCasts: - Claire made a skin so the site looks better - I've started a campain with google adwords (google offered me 80€ to try) results: more visits, more Flattr and several mails from newcommers in my inbox. This is just a little experiment but it seems it works. Ralph Johnson wrote: > > > > One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers have > > left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up on the > > bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > > passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or Smalltalk > > would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing books like "The > > Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > > > > This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > > unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > > community. > > > > I agree and this is where I am trying to help as well. It is extremely > important but please beware that "marketing" is not something only > "marketeers" do, everyone involved is participating in marketing, starting > from application's requirements/features, look-and-feel, usability, > quality, > cost/license, documentation, support etc ... the whole shebang :) > I agree. world.st is nice. We need to have more people writing blogs, tweet, screencasts .... it's not hard, it's not a lot of time. If people want Smalltalk to succeed, do a small thing every day. IMHO everyone and everyday is actually more important than big project/application. Big project is the consequence. Laurent. > ps. I have actually read a couple of Malcolm's books ... Chris Anderson's > Free is a good one too :) > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384270.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi guys Where were you? Where are your bogs, books, videos, and cool Smalltalk open source projects? I mean that this is easy to get frustrated but it is possible to do things: - I wrote Squeak by Example not for me but for newcomers - We are writing Pharo by example two for the same. - I wrote the Seaside book because it was important for other people (and because avi was not writing one) - we are pushing pharo because we want to create a good open-source smalltalk. I came to smalltalk in 1996 when everybody left and I decided to do something. Now this is not enough but I'm not frustrated and we are creating good energy. If people really want they can join and help or get frustrated. Stef

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Niall Ross

Dear Steve, Geert and Ralph, I hope you will be coming to ESUG in Edinburgh: http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2011 1) The department in Edinburgh that are hosting us do research in CMS. This topic would be a natural one to workshop there. Can we turn this thread into a plan to progress this - maybe both in the preceeding weekend's Camp Smalltalk and in the conference? 2) Yes. I have used and ported Pier, and presented it to non-Smalltalkers, and I have noticed that very small how-to or clarification things could delay me and would undoubtedly affect a non-Smalltalk user. (Some of it was just order of presentation - the how-to's that a non-Smalltalker wants first are not too hard to find - if you're a Smalltalker and so can guess where to look.) It would be good to watch people starting to use Smalltalk's 'best-practice' web suite and see what's slowing them. Yours faithfully Niall Ross > Hi, > > I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk > over the last twenty years > has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java > was another one!). > > Steve Edwards > (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and > Ruby.) > > > > > On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu > <mailto:johnson@cs.uiuc.edu>> wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes > <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com <mailto:geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > laurent laffont wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of > documentation, recipes, > >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> ... > >> > > > > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an > application users > > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to > do a hard > > sell :) > > Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > the license, or something else non-technical. > > No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > is crucial. > > One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > > This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > community. > > -Ralph Johnson > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org <mailto:Esug-list@lists.esug.org> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > -- > Steve Edwards > Escala Ltd. > steve(a)escala.co.uk <mailto:steve@escala.co.uk> > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Reza Razavi

At 12:16 17/03/2011, Ralph Johnson wrote: >Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk. Exact! And, in my experience, even when you have a unique and at least in theory widely applicable Smalltalk-based solution, its marketing implies often facing the lack of suitable Smalltalk marketing strategies in general, which overall makes your task really hard. Regards Reza Razavi http://adaptiveobjectmodel.com/blog/ http://www.afacms.com/blog/pontoon-app/

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Ralph Johnson wrote: > >> >> When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an application >> users want to use does its >> own marketing and than there is no need to do a hard sell :) > > Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what customers > want and removing the things preventing them from getting it. it is > finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, the > license, or something else non-technical. > > No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes the > marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to tell who > is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > is crucial. > Don't get me wrong Ralph, that's exactly what I meant when I said when you have "an application users want to use" ... because this IS your market. If you miss this ball on this one you can have all the documentation, exposure, advertising and whatever in the world, it still wont make people want your application. Ralph Johnson wrote: > > One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers have > left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up on the > bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or Smalltalk > would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing books like "The > Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > > This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > community. > I agree and this is where I am trying to help as well. It is extremely important but please beware that "marketing" is not something only "marketeers" do, everyone involved is participating in marketing, starting from application's requirements/features, look-and-feel, usability, quality, cost/license, documentation, support etc ... the whole shebang :) ps. I have actually read a couple of Malcolm's books ... Chris Anderson's Free is a good one too :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384270.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Steve Edwards

Hi, I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk over the last twenty years has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was another one!). Steve Edwards (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and Ruby.) On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > laurent laffont wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of documentation, > recipes, > >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> ... > >> > > > > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an application > users > > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to do a hard > > sell :) > > Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > the license, or something else non-technical. > > No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > is crucial. > > One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > > This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > community. > > -Ralph Johnson > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Steve Edwards Escala Ltd. steve(a)escala.co.uk

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by laurent laffont

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Ralph Johnson <johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > laurent laffont wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of documentation, > recipes, > >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> ... > >> > > > > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an application > users > > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to do a hard > > sell :) > > Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > the license, or something else non-technical. > > No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > is crucial. > > One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > > This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > community. > + 10 Laurent. > > -Ralph Johnson > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Ralph Johnson

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > laurent laffont wrote: >> >> ... >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of documentation, recipes, >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. >> ... >> > > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an application users > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to do a hard > sell :) Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, the license, or something else non-technical. No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing is crucial. One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk community. -Ralph Johnson

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Geert Claes

Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > > Having preconfigured amazon ec2 AMI with Pier correctly configured as a > blog would not hurt. And by correctly I mean really ready to go with > persistence, backups, google analyitics. And few bullet proof > tutorials how to adjust look and feel, i.e. where to poke what, and that > it works even if one does not understand what he is doing much less can > read Smalltalk code. > I think people like to know how much it will cost them and I thought AWS is more a pay-as-you-use, in that case it would be nice to be able to give an idea how much it will cost per month. Being able to easily change the look-and-feel is certainly very important. Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > > Of course it would be also great to have clear documentation, which goes > beyond to say that everything is a structure. > How to use a web application - like a blog/cms - should be intuitive enough so no or minimum documentation is required (when tinckering with the internals this may be a different story) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384204.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 17, 2011

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk hosting ...

by Davorin Rusevljan

Having preconfigured amazon ec2 AMI with Pier correctly configured as a blog would not hurt. And by correctly I mean really ready to go with persistence, backups, google analyitics. And few bullet proof tutorials how to adjust look and feel, i.e. where to poke what, and that it works even if one does not understand what he is doing much less can read Smalltalk code. Of course it would be also great to have clear documentation, which goes beyond to say that everything is a structure. But I am afraid it is really a lot of work. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

March 17, 2011