September 2010 - Esug-list

Re: [Esug-list] Information about ESUG 2010 conference

by stephane ducasse

jordi told me that the talks with be recorded. Stef On Sep 10, 2010, at 8:28 PM, James Foster wrote: > Any word on this? > > James > > On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:40 PM, Jordi Delgado wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> One of the services Citilab offers as a venue of conferences is a live >> streaming of the talks. Also, they may be recorded. I will ask, but I am >> pretty sure that this service is included. As soon as I am back to Barcelona >> I will ask. I'll keep you informed. >> >> Bests, >> >> Jordi >> >>> >>> Looking at the list of talks I really wish I could be at the ESUG conference >>> ... will the talks be recorded so those who won't be able to be there will >>> be able to at least get an update afterwards? >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Information-about-ESUG-2010-conference-tp2400043p2400… >>> Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Sept. 10, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Information about ESUG 2010 conference

by James Foster

Any word on this? James On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:40 PM, Jordi Delgado wrote: > Hi, > > One of the services Citilab offers as a venue of conferences is a live > streaming of the talks. Also, they may be recorded. I will ask, but I am > pretty sure that this service is included. As soon as I am back to Barcelona > I will ask. I'll keep you informed. > > Bests, > > Jordi > >> >> Looking at the list of talks I really wish I could be at the ESUG conference >> ... will the talks be recorded so those who won't be able to be there will >> be able to at least get an update afterwards? >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Information-about-ESUG-2010-conference-tp2400043p2400… >> Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Sept. 10, 2010

Fwd: is there a bus from the airport to citilab/hotel?

by Stéphane Ducasse

Begin forwarded message: > From: Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu> > Date: September 10, 2010 6:01:39 PM GMT+02:00 > To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > Cc: board(a)esug.org > Subject: Re: is there a bus from the airport to citilab/hotel? > > Hi > >> is there a bus from the airport to citilab/hotel? >> > > Yes, all the information is in the map. > > At terminal T1 (El Prat airport) there should be a stop of > the bus line L77. > > You can go to Citilab and leave your luggage at some safe > place we will arrange there. In this case you should get > down the L77 bus at some of the bus stops tagged 'Bus stop L77 (1/3)' > or 'Bus stop L77 (3/3)' and walk. > > Also, you may prefer to go to the hotel before going to > Citilab. In case you want to go to the Hotel, you can > go down the bus L77 at the stop BEFORE the one tagged > 'Bus stop L77 (3/3)'. That stop happens to be the same as the > one tagged 'Bus stop, line 94 (stop close to Citilab)'. > > Then you may > a) get the Bus 94 until the stop tagged 'Bus stop, line 94 (stop close to Ibis Hotel)' > [this is a circular bus, it takes much longer from this stop to the hotel than > from the hotel to this stop] > b) walk to the hotel, following the path in the map. There should be 20-25 minutes > walking from the bus stop to th Hotel. > > Bests, > > Jordi

Sept. 10, 2010

We'll have a sunny ESUG 2010 :-)

by Noury Bouraqadi

Begin forwarded message: > From: Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu> > Date: 9 septembre 2010 13:22:27 HAEC > To: board(a)esug.org > Subject: weather forecast > > Hi, > > Good news, it looks like we are going to enjoy > a sunny ESUG! > > http://www.meteocat.com/mediamb_xemec/servmet/english/index.html > > At least until next thursday... > > Bests, > > Jordi Noury

Sept. 9, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Noury Bouraqadi

Sounds more about how to do silly things such as switching to Java. We want books that promotes Smalltalk ;-) Noury On 9 sept. 2010, at 00:18, Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote: > On 08.09.2010 16:52, stephane ducasse wrote: >> Since we do not add french books we do not add spanish nor japanese ones. >>> The SICS Java Port Project: Automatic Translation of a Large Object Oriented System from Smalltalk to Java by Skarsaune Martin (Paperback - Sep 15, 2008) - I would expect zero votes for this one :-) > While not a book on Smalltalk as such and thus not fitting for this contest, I actually found it an entertaining read! > Mostly in a "So glad it wasn't me"-fashion, but still... :) > > Cheers, > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org Noury

Sept. 9, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

On 08.09.2010 16:52, stephane ducasse wrote: > Since we do not add french books we do not add spanish nor japanese ones. >> The SICS Java Port Project: Automatic Translation of a Large Object >> Oriented System from Smalltalk to Java by Skarsaune Martin (Paperback >> - Sep 15, 2008) - I would expect zero votes for this one :-) While not a book on Smalltalk as such and thus not fitting for this contest, I actually found it an entertaining read! Mostly in a "So glad it wasn't me"-fashion, but still... :) Cheers, Henry

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Noury Bouraqadi

Yes. Only english is accessible to the whole community. Note however that our more productive authors aren't native english speakers ;-) Noury On 8 sept. 2010, at 16:52, stephane ducasse wrote: > Since we do not add french books we do not add spanish nor japanese ones. > > On Sep 8, 2010, at 4:23 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote: > >> You should add Diego Gomez Deck book "Programando con Smalltalk". It's in spanish so it may not be the most popular but I believe it's a very nice book (although somewhat old now). >> >> It was the first smalltalk book I read and I learned the basics with it, so I'm very fond of this book :) >> >> Regarding the book translations discussion I think translating books is very important. Even though you still need to understand english to code smalltalk I still like to read books in my language. If you get the infrastructure right I'm willing to help translating stuff to spanish in my free time. >> >> Cheers >> Richo >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <jecel(a)merlintec.com> wrote: >> Bert Freudenberg wrote on Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:50:22 +0200 >>> I for one am happy that there were enough books written about Smalltalk >>> that we can have a competition. >>> >>> Thank you for organizing the contest, ESUG. >> >> I would also like to thank both ESUG for holding the contest and the >> authors for their very valuable contribution to the community. While >> Andreas does have a point about conflict of interest, it is unavoidable >> due to the small size of our community (we had quite a bit of conflict >> over this on squeak-dev last year, for example). It is like the small >> town where the same guy is the sheriff, the auto repairman, the judge, >> the fireman and so on. >> >> About the list itself, I did a quick search on Amazon for "smalltalk" >> and found these others: >> >> Discovering Smalltalk (The Benjamin/Cummings Series in Object-Oriented >> Software Engineering) >> by Wilf Lalonde >> (Paperback - Jan 17, 2008) - it seems to use Digitalk Smalltalk V, so >> this is probably a new edition of an old book >> >> Advances in Smalltalk: 14th International Smaltalk Conference, ISC 2006, >> Prague, Czech Republic, September 4-8, 2006, Revised Selected Papers >> (Lecture ... / Programming and Software Engineering) >> by Wolfgang De Meuter >> (Paperback - May 18, 2007) >> >> Grundkurs Smalltalk - Objektorientierung von Anfang an >> by Johannes Brauer >> (Perfect Paperback - 2008) - in German >> >> Einsamkeit überwinden mit der TALISUND Strategie. Neue Menschen kennen >> lernen - ohne Smalltalk. >> by einsamkeit-ueberwinden.org >> (Paperback - Mar 30, 2010) - in German >> >> The SICS Java Port Project: Automatic Translation of a Large Object >> Oriented System from Smalltalk to Java >> by Skarsaune Martin >> (Paperback - Sep 15, 2008) - I would expect zero votes for this one :-) >> >> Self-Sustaining Systems: First Workshop, S3 2008 Potsdam, Germany, May >> 15-16, 2008, Proceedings (Lecture Notes in Computer Science / >> Programming and Software Engineering) >> by Robert Hirschfeld and Kim Rose >> (Paperback - Nov 21, 2008) >> >> Smalltalk Programming Language Family: Smalltalk, Squeak, Seaside, Ibm >> Visualage, Scratch, Gnu Smalltalk, Visual Smalltalk Enterprise, Aida|web >> by Books LLC >> (Paperback - May 6, 2010) >> >> Dialecte Smalltalk: Squeak, Pharo, Gnu Smalltalk, Scratch, Bistro, >> Visualworks >> by Livres Groupe >> (Paperback - Aug 1, 2010) - in French >> >> Class-Based Programming Languages: Java, C++, Python, Eiffel, Smalltalk, >> Ruby, Simula, Common Lisp, Oberon, Clu, Objective-C, Squeak, Sather >> by Books LLC >> (Paperback - May 24, 2010) >> >> Dynamically-Typed Programming Languages: Lisp, Perl, Python, Mumps, >> Smalltalk, Ruby, Logo, Tcl, Self, Common Lisp, Objective-C, Rebol, >> Squeak >> by Books LLC >> (Paperback - May 26, 2010) >> >> Objektorientierte Programmiersprache: Php, Smalltalk-80, Embarcadero >> Delphi, Oberon, Eiffel, Cluster, Haxe, Common Lisp, Pow!, Scratch, Lpc >> by Bücher Gruppe >> (Paperback - Jul 22, 2010) - in German >> >> Langage Orienté Objet: Java, C++, Ada, Javascript, Ruby, Python, >> Codegear Delphi, Smalltalk, Kylix, Objective-C, Eiffel, Perl 6, Visual T >> Sharp >> by Livres Groupe >> (Paperback - Jul 29, 2010) - in French >> >> Object-Oriented Programming Languages: Cobol, Java, C++, Perl, Fortran, >> Python, Php, Eiffel, Smalltalk, Ruby, Blitz Basic, Turbo Pascal >> by Books LLC >> (Paperback - May 21, 2010) >> >> Ruby (Programming Language): Reflection (computer science), Dynamic >> programming language, Object-oriented programming language, Perl, >> Smalltalk, Yukihiro ... language), Ada (programming language) >> by Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, and John McBrewster >> (Paperback - Oct 12, 2009) >> >> I would say that the list is very reasonable without any of the above >> books. Since I haven't read any of these nor the ones in the survey, I >> won't be able to participate. But I find it great that people are still >> taking the time to write new books. >> >> -- Jecel >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org Noury

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by stephane ducasse

Since we do not add french books we do not add spanish nor japanese ones. On Sep 8, 2010, at 4:23 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote: > You should add Diego Gomez Deck book "Programando con Smalltalk". It's in spanish so it may not be the most popular but I believe it's a very nice book (although somewhat old now). > > It was the first smalltalk book I read and I learned the basics with it, so I'm very fond of this book :) > > Regarding the book translations discussion I think translating books is very important. Even though you still need to understand english to code smalltalk I still like to read books in my language. If you get the infrastructure right I'm willing to help translating stuff to spanish in my free time. > > Cheers > Richo > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <jecel(a)merlintec.com> wrote: > Bert Freudenberg wrote on Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:50:22 +0200 > > I for one am happy that there were enough books written about Smalltalk > > that we can have a competition. > > > > Thank you for organizing the contest, ESUG. > > I would also like to thank both ESUG for holding the contest and the > authors for their very valuable contribution to the community. While > Andreas does have a point about conflict of interest, it is unavoidable > due to the small size of our community (we had quite a bit of conflict > over this on squeak-dev last year, for example). It is like the small > town where the same guy is the sheriff, the auto repairman, the judge, > the fireman and so on. > > About the list itself, I did a quick search on Amazon for "smalltalk" > and found these others: > > Discovering Smalltalk (The Benjamin/Cummings Series in Object-Oriented > Software Engineering) > by Wilf Lalonde > (Paperback - Jan 17, 2008) - it seems to use Digitalk Smalltalk V, so > this is probably a new edition of an old book > > Advances in Smalltalk: 14th International Smaltalk Conference, ISC 2006, > Prague, Czech Republic, September 4-8, 2006, Revised Selected Papers > (Lecture ... / Programming and Software Engineering) > by Wolfgang De Meuter > (Paperback - May 18, 2007) > > Grundkurs Smalltalk - Objektorientierung von Anfang an > by Johannes Brauer > (Perfect Paperback - 2008) - in German > > Einsamkeit überwinden mit der TALISUND Strategie. Neue Menschen kennen > lernen - ohne Smalltalk. > by einsamkeit-ueberwinden.org > (Paperback - Mar 30, 2010) - in German > > The SICS Java Port Project: Automatic Translation of a Large Object > Oriented System from Smalltalk to Java > by Skarsaune Martin > (Paperback - Sep 15, 2008) - I would expect zero votes for this one :-) > > Self-Sustaining Systems: First Workshop, S3 2008 Potsdam, Germany, May > 15-16, 2008, Proceedings (Lecture Notes in Computer Science / > Programming and Software Engineering) > by Robert Hirschfeld and Kim Rose > (Paperback - Nov 21, 2008) > > Smalltalk Programming Language Family: Smalltalk, Squeak, Seaside, Ibm > Visualage, Scratch, Gnu Smalltalk, Visual Smalltalk Enterprise, Aida|web > by Books LLC > (Paperback - May 6, 2010) > > Dialecte Smalltalk: Squeak, Pharo, Gnu Smalltalk, Scratch, Bistro, > Visualworks > by Livres Groupe > (Paperback - Aug 1, 2010) - in French > > Class-Based Programming Languages: Java, C++, Python, Eiffel, Smalltalk, > Ruby, Simula, Common Lisp, Oberon, Clu, Objective-C, Squeak, Sather > by Books LLC > (Paperback - May 24, 2010) > > Dynamically-Typed Programming Languages: Lisp, Perl, Python, Mumps, > Smalltalk, Ruby, Logo, Tcl, Self, Common Lisp, Objective-C, Rebol, > Squeak > by Books LLC > (Paperback - May 26, 2010) > > Objektorientierte Programmiersprache: Php, Smalltalk-80, Embarcadero > Delphi, Oberon, Eiffel, Cluster, Haxe, Common Lisp, Pow!, Scratch, Lpc > by Bücher Gruppe > (Paperback - Jul 22, 2010) - in German > > Langage Orienté Objet: Java, C++, Ada, Javascript, Ruby, Python, > Codegear Delphi, Smalltalk, Kylix, Objective-C, Eiffel, Perl 6, Visual T > Sharp > by Livres Groupe > (Paperback - Jul 29, 2010) - in French > > Object-Oriented Programming Languages: Cobol, Java, C++, Perl, Fortran, > Python, Php, Eiffel, Smalltalk, Ruby, Blitz Basic, Turbo Pascal > by Books LLC > (Paperback - May 21, 2010) > > Ruby (Programming Language): Reflection (computer science), Dynamic > programming language, Object-oriented programming language, Perl, > Smalltalk, Yukihiro ... language), Ada (programming language) > by Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, and John McBrewster > (Paperback - Oct 12, 2009) > > I would say that the list is very reasonable without any of the above > books. Since I haven't read any of these nor the ones in the survey, I > won't be able to participate. But I find it great that people are still > taking the time to write new books. > > -- Jecel > > > >

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

by Leandro Caniglia

Yes, we are using VSE. leandro caniglia ph.d. | chief technologist | *caesar** systems *| *see clearly. decide smarter**.* lcaniglia(a)caesarsystems.com | t: +1.281.598.8810 +1.281.617.2972 +54.11.4389.0126 | www.caesarsystems.com This message and any attached documents contain information from Caesar Systems LLC that may be confidential/trade secret and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or use this information. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or by reply e-mail and then delete this message. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > If you are continuing to use VSE, please reply to the list with at least > a simple “Yes”. > > > > I have no interest in VSE, but Henrik has asked twice and got no replies > (on this list), so let’s at least help reduce a fellow Smalltalker’s > frustration. > > > > Cheers, > > Steve > > > > > > *From:* esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto: > esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org] *On Behalf Of *Henrik Høyer > *Sent:* 7. syyskuuta 2010 22:04 > *To:* The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing list > *Subject:* Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk > Enterprice > > > > Dear all > > > > From the reactions to my post, I fear that people might have misunderstood > me. Bear in mind, that I am not a native English speaker – though my > language might sound harsh and offensive, I do have the best intensions. > > > > The subject of the original post should perhaps have been: “Is Cincom > slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprise *customers*”. Who shot VSE a long > time ago is another discussion. As are the discussion of how/whether one > could/should port the applications to other Smalltalk dialects. > > > > My focus is entirely on how the current VSE users can extend the life of > their applications on the VSE platform. Even though development on VSE > stopped more than 10 years ago, the applications are still running today on > current operating system versions and with on-par performance. > > > > Part of VSE is closed source; The VM, the compiler and several other stuff. > Though clever hacking/patching bugs in these closed parts of VSE have been > fixes by the community since the official development stopped. But Cincom > (who has the exclusive rights to make money from supporting the product) has > now unleashed its lawyers, and are threatening some of the most active > people in the community. The amount of “lawyer muscle” behind the threats > are actually keeping people from even replying to this post. > > > > I did have a deep respect for Cincom; they have done a great job for the > Smalltalk community. I don’t know where in their organization the “money > matters more than ethics” policy is in action. It is not among the Smalltalk > people we all know, but the ones who are pulling the strings are in fact > doing a lot of damage to their corporate image. > > > > I know that some Cincom employees have commented on my post, but I still > have had no answers to the main question: > > > > Are Cincom willing to donate/sell their “exclusive exploratory rights to > the VSE product”? > > > > Please note: The question is not about the IP. It is only about the rights > that Cincom holds, oh and by the way; are Cincom willing to disclose the > contact they have with Seagull regarding these rights? > > > > With all the best intensions > > > > > > [image: sPeople Logo] <http://www.sPeople.dk> > > *Henrik Høyer* > > Chief Software Architect > > hh(a)sppl.dk • (+45) 4029 2092 > > Rued Langgaards Vej 7 • 2300 Kbh. S > > www.sPeople.dk • (+45) 7023 7775 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

by stephane ducasse

I was a good one :) Stef On Sep 8, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Andreas Rosenberg wrote: > Yes, we are still using Digitalk Visual Smalltalk. > > We did a presentation about our efforts to keep it alive at ESUG 2008 in > Amsterdam: > > http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2008/A%20Moribund%20Smalltalk%20st > ill%20alive%20and%20kicking%3A%20The%20APIS%20VisualSmalltalk%20IDE?_s=g-5d5 > pKDIUCnaLYZ > <http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2008/A%20Moribund%20Smalltalk%20s > till%20alive%20and%20kicking%3A%20The%20APIS%20VisualSmalltalk%20IDE?_s=g-5d > 5pKDIUCnaLYZ&_k=2Nhf_0Bb-GKGSvlV&_n&24> &_k=2Nhf_0Bb-GKGSvlV&_n&24 > > Andreas Rosenberg | eMail: andreas.rosenberg(a)apis.de > APIS GmbH | Phone: +49 9482 9415-0 > Im Haslet 42 | Fax: +49 9482 9415-55 > 93086 Wörth/D | WWW: < http://www.apis.de/ <http://www.apis.de/> > > Germany | < http://www.fmea.de/ <http://www.fmea.de/> > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org > [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org]On Behalf Of Steven Kelly > Sent: Mittwoch, 8. September 2010 11:13 > To: Henrik Høyer; The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing > list > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk > Enterprice > > > > If you are continuing to use VSE, please reply to the list with at least a > simple "Yes". > > > > I have no interest in VSE, but Henrik has asked twice and got no replies (on > this list), so let's at least help reduce a fellow Smalltalker's > frustration. > > > > Cheers, > > Steve > > > > > > From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org > [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Henrik Høyer > Sent: 7. syyskuuta 2010 22:04 > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing list > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk > Enterprice > > > > Dear all > > > > From the reactions to my post, I fear that people might have misunderstood > me. Bear in mind, that I am not a native English speaker - though my > language might sound harsh and offensive, I do have the best intensions. > > > > The subject of the original post should perhaps have been: "Is Cincom slowly > killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprise *customers*". Who shot VSE a long time > ago is another discussion. As are the discussion of how/whether one > could/should port the applications to other Smalltalk dialects. > > > > My focus is entirely on how the current VSE users can extend the life of > their applications on the VSE platform. Even though development on VSE > stopped more than 10 years ago, the applications are still running today on > current operating system versions and with on-par performance. > > > > Part of VSE is closed source; The VM, the compiler and several other stuff. > Though clever hacking/patching bugs in these closed parts of VSE have been > fixes by the community since the official development stopped. But Cincom > (who has the exclusive rights to make money from supporting the product) has > now unleashed its lawyers, and are threatening some of the most active > people in the community. The amount of "lawyer muscle" behind the threats > are actually keeping people from even replying to this post. > > > > I did have a deep respect for Cincom; they have done a great job for the > Smalltalk community. I don't know where in their organization the "money > matters more than ethics" policy is in action. It is not among the Smalltalk > people we all know, but the ones who are pulling the strings are in fact > doing a lot of damage to their corporate image. > > > > I know that some Cincom employees have commented on my post, but I still > have had no answers to the main question: > > > > Are Cincom willing to donate/sell their "exclusive exploratory rights to the > VSE product"? > > > > Please note: The question is not about the IP. It is only about the rights > that Cincom holds, oh and by the way; are Cincom willing to disclose the > contact they have with Seagull regarding these rights? > > > > With all the best intensions > > > > > > > <http://www.sPeople.dk> sPeople Logo > > Henrik Høyer > > > Chief Software Architect > > > <mailto:hh@sppl.dk> hh(a)sppl.dk * (+45) 4029 2092 > > > Rued Langgaards Vej 7 * 2300 Kbh. S > > > <http://www.sPeople.dk> www.sPeople.dk * (+45) 7023 7775 > > > > > > > > > <winmail.dat>_______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

by Andreas Rosenberg

Yes, we are still using Digitalk Visual Smalltalk. We did a presentation about our efforts to keep it alive at ESUG 2008 in Amsterdam: http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2008/A%20Moribund%20Smalltalk%20st ill%20alive%20and%20kicking%3A%20The%20APIS%20VisualSmalltalk%20IDE?_s=g-5d5 pKDIUCnaLYZ <http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2008/A%20Moribund%20Smalltalk%20s till%20alive%20and%20kicking%3A%20The%20APIS%20VisualSmalltalk%20IDE?_s=g-5d 5pKDIUCnaLYZ&_k=2Nhf_0Bb-GKGSvlV&_n&24> &_k=2Nhf_0Bb-GKGSvlV&_n&24 Andreas Rosenberg | eMail: andreas.rosenberg(a)apis.de APIS GmbH | Phone: +49 9482 9415-0 Im Haslet 42 | Fax: +49 9482 9415-55 93086 Wörth/D | WWW: < http://www.apis.de/ <http://www.apis.de/> > Germany | < http://www.fmea.de/ <http://www.fmea.de/> > -----Original Message----- From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org]On Behalf Of Steven Kelly Sent: Mittwoch, 8. September 2010 11:13 To: Henrik Høyer; The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice If you are continuing to use VSE, please reply to the list with at least a simple "Yes". I have no interest in VSE, but Henrik has asked twice and got no replies (on this list), so let's at least help reduce a fellow Smalltalker's frustration. Cheers, Steve From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Henrik Høyer Sent: 7. syyskuuta 2010 22:04 To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice Dear all >From the reactions to my post, I fear that people might have misunderstood me. Bear in mind, that I am not a native English speaker - though my language might sound harsh and offensive, I do have the best intensions. The subject of the original post should perhaps have been: "Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprise *customers*". Who shot VSE a long time ago is another discussion. As are the discussion of how/whether one could/should port the applications to other Smalltalk dialects. My focus is entirely on how the current VSE users can extend the life of their applications on the VSE platform. Even though development on VSE stopped more than 10 years ago, the applications are still running today on current operating system versions and with on-par performance. Part of VSE is closed source; The VM, the compiler and several other stuff. Though clever hacking/patching bugs in these closed parts of VSE have been fixes by the community since the official development stopped. But Cincom (who has the exclusive rights to make money from supporting the product) has now unleashed its lawyers, and are threatening some of the most active people in the community. The amount of "lawyer muscle" behind the threats are actually keeping people from even replying to this post. I did have a deep respect for Cincom; they have done a great job for the Smalltalk community. I don't know where in their organization the "money matters more than ethics" policy is in action. It is not among the Smalltalk people we all know, but the ones who are pulling the strings are in fact doing a lot of damage to their corporate image. I know that some Cincom employees have commented on my post, but I still have had no answers to the main question: Are Cincom willing to donate/sell their "exclusive exploratory rights to the VSE product"? Please note: The question is not about the IP. It is only about the rights that Cincom holds, oh and by the way; are Cincom willing to disclose the contact they have with Seagull regarding these rights? With all the best intensions <http://www.sPeople.dk> sPeople Logo Henrik Høyer Chief Software Architect <mailto:hh@sppl.dk> hh(a)sppl.dk * (+45) 4029 2092 Rued Langgaards Vej 7 * 2300 Kbh. S <http://www.sPeople.dk> www.sPeople.dk * (+45) 7023 7775

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

by Steven Kelly

If you are continuing to use VSE, please reply to the list with at least a simple "Yes". I have no interest in VSE, but Henrik has asked twice and got no replies (on this list), so let's at least help reduce a fellow Smalltalker's frustration. Cheers, Steve From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Henrik Høyer Sent: 7. syyskuuta 2010 22:04 To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice Dear all >From the reactions to my post, I fear that people might have misunderstood me. Bear in mind, that I am not a native English speaker - though my language might sound harsh and offensive, I do have the best intensions. The subject of the original post should perhaps have been: "Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprise *customers*". Who shot VSE a long time ago is another discussion. As are the discussion of how/whether one could/should port the applications to other Smalltalk dialects. My focus is entirely on how the current VSE users can extend the life of their applications on the VSE platform. Even though development on VSE stopped more than 10 years ago, the applications are still running today on current operating system versions and with on-par performance. Part of VSE is closed source; The VM, the compiler and several other stuff. Though clever hacking/patching bugs in these closed parts of VSE have been fixes by the community since the official development stopped. But Cincom (who has the exclusive rights to make money from supporting the product) has now unleashed its lawyers, and are threatening some of the most active people in the community. The amount of "lawyer muscle" behind the threats are actually keeping people from even replying to this post. I did have a deep respect for Cincom; they have done a great job for the Smalltalk community. I don't know where in their organization the "money matters more than ethics" policy is in action. It is not among the Smalltalk people we all know, but the ones who are pulling the strings are in fact doing a lot of damage to their corporate image. I know that some Cincom employees have commented on my post, but I still have had no answers to the main question: Are Cincom willing to donate/sell their "exclusive exploratory rights to the VSE product"? Please note: The question is not about the IP. It is only about the rights that Cincom holds, oh and by the way; are Cincom willing to disclose the contact they have with Seagull regarding these rights? With all the best intensions <http://www.sPeople.dk> Henrik Høyer Chief Software Architect hh(a)sppl.dk <mailto:hh@sppl.dk> * (+45) 4029 2092 Rued Langgaards Vej 7 * 2300 Kbh. S www.sPeople.dk <http://www.sPeople.dk> * (+45) 7023 7775

Sept. 8, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

by Henrik Høyer

Dear all >From the reactions to my post, I fear that people might have misunderstood me. Bear in mind, that I am not a native English speaker - though my language might sound harsh and offensive, I do have the best intensions. The subject of the original post should perhaps have been: "Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprise *customers*". Who shot VSE a long time ago is another discussion. As are the discussion of how/whether one could/should port the applications to other Smalltalk dialects. My focus is entirely on how the current VSE users can extend the life of their applications on the VSE platform. Even though development on VSE stopped more than 10 years ago, the applications are still running today on current operating system versions and with on-par performance. Part of VSE is closed source; The VM, the compiler and several other stuff. Though clever hacking/patching bugs in these closed parts of VSE have been fixes by the community since the official development stopped. But Cincom (who has the exclusive rights to make money from supporting the product) has now unleashed its lawyers, and are threatening some of the most active people in the community. The amount of "lawyer muscle" behind the threats are actually keeping people from even replying to this post. I did have a deep respect for Cincom; they have done a great job for the Smalltalk community. I don't know where in their organization the "money matters more than ethics" policy is in action. It is not among the Smalltalk people we all know, but the ones who are pulling the strings are in fact doing a lot of damage to their corporate image. I know that some Cincom employees have commented on my post, but I still have had no answers to the main question: Are Cincom willing to donate/sell their "exclusive exploratory rights to the VSE product"? Please note: The question is not about the IP. It is only about the rights that Cincom holds, oh and by the way; are Cincom willing to disclose the contact they have with Seagull regarding these rights? With all the best intensions [cid:speoplelogo1eb.png]<http://www.sPeople.dk> Henrik Høyer Chief Software Architect hh(a)sppl.dk<mailto:hh@sppl.dk> * (+45) 4029 2092 Rued Langgaards Vej 7 * 2300 Kbh. S www.sPeople.dk<http://www.sPeople.dk> * (+45) 7023 7775

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by stephane ducasse

Thanks Bert! We should make more noise and get new writers. Stef > I for one am happy that there were enough books written about Smalltalk that we can have a competition. > > Thank you for organizing the contest, ESUG. > > Now let's spread the word and vote: > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT > > In case this got lost in the unnecessary side discussion, it's open to Wednesday, Sept. 15 noon CEST. > > - Bert - > > (Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself) > >

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] supporting the spanish translation of Pharo by example

by Mariano Martinez Peck

I am in the half too. What it is a pity is that it is like that since 4 months .... :( I started to write a chapter for Metacello for PBE2 and all my time allocated to that went there :( On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:35 PM, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)gmail.com > wrote: > +1 > Jordi no stress!!!! > We should just keep the ball rolling. > And apparently you are not the only one. :) > Stef > > > > take it easy !! We will reorganize the work soon ... No worries > > > > Gabi > > > > 2010/9/7 Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu> > > Hi, > > > > Shame on me, but guilty as charged... I had to translate chap. 13, I am > still > > half way and it is not even uploaded to the repository. > > I have not been completely commited to the translation. Perhaps I may use > > Smalltalk camp to finish this before doing anything else. > > > > Sorry, > > > > Bests, > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > Hi guys > > > > > > I heard that the spanish translation of the pharo by example book is at > 50%. :( > > > So please contact Gabriela Arevalo <gabriela.b.arevalo(a)gmail.com> to > help. > > > I cannot believe that you will not get it done. > > > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Esug-list mailing list > > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Bert Freudenberg

I for one am happy that there were enough books written about Smalltalk that we can have a competition. Thank you for organizing the contest, ESUG. Now let's spread the word and vote: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT In case this got lost in the unnecessary side discussion, it's open to Wednesday, Sept. 15 noon CEST. - Bert - (Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself)

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Stéphane Ducasse

oops! We did not listed japanese books only english ones (but this is ok since we removed the french ones too). On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > ok i push this announce to japanese Smalltalk mailing-list. > Regards, > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> I forgot to mention that the deadline is until wednesday 15 at noon. >> On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:06 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Dear Smalltalkers >>> >>> this year ESUG would like to reward effort made in book publications. Since we want to push new books but that it takes time to write books we will >>> take into account a window of 5 years. So you are requested to vote for the best book of the last 5 years. >>> >>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT >>> >>> Stef on the behalf of the ESUG board. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] supporting the spanish translation of Pharo by example

by stephane ducasse

+1 Jordi no stress!!!! We should just keep the ball rolling. And apparently you are not the only one. :) Stef > take it easy !! We will reorganize the work soon ... No worries > > Gabi > > 2010/9/7 Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu> > Hi, > > Shame on me, but guilty as charged... I had to translate chap. 13, I am still > half way and it is not even uploaded to the repository. > I have not been completely commited to the translation. Perhaps I may use > Smalltalk camp to finish this before doing anything else. > > Sorry, > > Bests, > > Jordi > > > > Hi guys > > > > I heard that the spanish translation of the pharo by example book is at 50%. :( > > So please contact Gabriela Arevalo <gabriela.b.arevalo(a)gmail.com> to help. > > I cannot believe that you will not get it done. > > > > Stef > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by stephane ducasse

+1 Thanks noury. This is fun to feel bashed for trying to move and get our community more exposure. Stef On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Noury Bouraqadi wrote: > Sorry Andreas. I don't see the conflict of interest. > You cleary missunderstood the point. > > ESUG is just an engine for moving the Smalltalk community forward. > The ESUG board will not decide which is the best book, this is why the vote is open to the community. > Nevertheless, ESUG board members likewise other Smalltalkers can submit their work. > > We spent time listing books about Smalltalk. And one of our conclusion is that the community is not very strong on this point, since we have only few authors (Andrès Valloud, Stéphane, ...). And we are lucky to have them. > > The goal of ESUG is to promote Smalltalk. > Showing that Smalltalk books are valuable and encouraging people to write is the point here. > > We want MORE SMALLTALK BOOKS! > This is the message that everybody should remember. > > Noury > http://car.mines-douai.fr/noury > ---- > -18th International Smalltalk Joint Conference, September 13 -17 2010 Barcelona, Spain. > http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2010 > > -18ème Journées Francophones des Systèmes Multi-Agents (JFSMA), 18-20 october 2010, Mahdia, Tunisia. > http://www.ltim.org/jfsma10/accueil.php > > -The SIMPAR 2010 International Workshop on Dynamic languages for RObotic and Sensors systems (DYROS), november 2010 - Darmstadt, Germany. > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/wikka.php?wakka=DYROS10 > > -4th Argentinian Smalltalks Conference November 11th - 13th, 2010, Concepción del Uruguay, Entre Ríos, Argentina > http://www.fast.org.ar/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by stephane ducasse

May be you did not realized that I wrote more squeak books than pharo ones. So what is your problems? I do not have any and if you feel better because you have nice words against me then I'm at least useful for something. Stef On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Andreas Raab wrote: > Ah, a good old-fashioned "Stefane Ducasse is pissed" post. Hadn't had one in a while. You really need to *read* the Wikipedia article on conflict of interest before sending one of your hate mails. Conflicts of interest happen everywhere, to me, to you, to many people. The important part is to recognize them and to act accordingly. Here is the second paragraph from Wikipedia: > > "A conflict of interest can only exist if a person or testimony is entrusted with some impartiality; a modicum of trust is necessary to create it. The presence of a conflict of interest is independent from the execution of impropriety. Therefore, a conflict of interest can be discovered and voluntarily defused before any corruption occurs." > > It should be obvious that a person who is both organizer of a contest as well as participant is in a potential conflict of interest situation. If you recognize the conflict you can deal with it. It can be as simple as being explicit that you expect others to spread the invitation, for example by including "please redistribute this announcement as widely as possible in the Smalltalk community". > > Having said all that my original point still stands, namely that your invitation of the Pharo community specifically to vote is a clear expression of an unrecognized and unmitigated conflict of interest. You need to learn to recognize such situations and to act less emotionally. Conflicts of interests happen to all of us, they can be dealt with calmly and reasonably. And I expect the president of ESUG to be able to act in such a way. > > Cheers, > - Andreas > > On 9/7/2010 12:51 AM, stephane ducasse wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the >>>>> Squeak list yet. >>>> >>>> like what? >>>> I'm curious to learn. >>> >>> Like "conflict of interest"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest) >>> >>> "A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other." >>> >>> Given that you're both the author of half of the books as well as president of ESUG (the organizer) it's pretty clear that you're stuck in a conflict of interest situation. Inviting the Pharo community to participate and not others only shows how deep the conflict of interest goes - the president of ESUG shouldn't favor individual communities, should he? >> >> Thanks andreas for this welcome mail. >> of course that esug does not something is not the wish of everybody. >> And people will vote not us. And this is not my fault if I spent my nights trying to get better a smalltalk world. >> Everybody can write books: a book is a word + a word + a word a lot of time, even you can do it. >> Now yesterday I had a difficult day >> - five visitors (one chilean, one argentinian, noury, luc, mariano and a team of 9 people to synchronize). >> You see I even forgot to send the mail to the seaside mailing-list. >> >> Thanks again for such encouragement. >> >> Stef (talking small). >> >

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] supporting the spanish translation of Pharo by example

by Serge Stinckwich

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu> wrote: > Hi, > > Shame on me, but guilty as charged... I had to translate chap. 13, I am still > half way and it is not even uploaded to the repository. > I have not been completely commited to the translation. Perhaps I may use > Smalltalk camp to finish this before doing anything else. Ok, we will sit together to be more motivate, because i need to finish PBE in french ;-) -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] supporting the spanish translation of Pharo by example

by Gabriela Arevalo

take it easy !! We will reorganize the work soon ... No worries Gabi 2010/9/7 Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu> > Hi, > > Shame on me, but guilty as charged... I had to translate chap. 13, I am > still > half way and it is not even uploaded to the repository. > I have not been completely commited to the translation. Perhaps I may use > Smalltalk camp to finish this before doing anything else. > > Sorry, > > Bests, > > Jordi > > > > Hi guys > > > > I heard that the spanish translation of the pharo by example book is at > 50%. :( > > So please contact Gabriela Arevalo <gabriela.b.arevalo(a)gmail.com> to > help. > > I cannot believe that you will not get it done. > > > > Stef > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] supporting the spanish translation of Pharo by example

by Jordi Delgado

Hi, Shame on me, but guilty as charged... I had to translate chap. 13, I am still half way and it is not even uploaded to the repository. I have not been completely commited to the translation. Perhaps I may use Smalltalk camp to finish this before doing anything else. Sorry, Bests, Jordi > Hi guys > > I heard that the spanish translation of the pharo by example book is at 50%. :( > So please contact Gabriela Arevalo <gabriela.b.arevalo(a)gmail.com> to help. > I cannot believe that you will not get it done. > > Stef > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Michael Haupt

Serge, On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > At the moment, i'm only aware of the FLOSS manual infrastructure, > mainly used by OLPC (but not only). browsing the web page, I found http://en.flossmanuals.net/OpenTranslationTools/ - it looks like a good entry point for completely oblivious people like me. :-) It has a list of open-source translation systems ... Is there a comprehensive feature list for the FLOSS infrastructure somewhere? Something to make one accomodated with it, like a quick start how-to? (Couldn't find one. Probably blindness.) Best, Michael

Sept. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

by Serge Stinckwich

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Serge, > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Serge Stinckwich > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I think we need more translations also ! We have only Squeak by >> Example in english and french. The same for Pharo by Example. >> I was wondering that maybe this is difficult for people who don't have >> the energy or the skill to setup a repository for translation. >> Maybe we should use an infrastructure like the one used for FLOSS >> Manuals (http://en.flossmanuals.net/ ) in order to be able to launch >> new translations very easily. >> >> What is the community thinking about that ? > > more translations: yes please, and I'm willing to contribute, but > infrastructure is key. I don't have a clue about what is possible in > terms of infrastructures for multi-language documentation/book > projects, but if it provides good tracking capabilities (e.g., > alerting translators to languages B..Z when a substantial content-wise > (not just language polishing) change is done in the version of > language A), that would be worthwhile. Yes, so maybe first step is to investigate the different open-source alternatives and after that we deploy an infrastructure somewhere and asking some ESUG funds ;-) At the moment, i'm only aware of the FLOSS manual infrastructure, mainly used by OLPC (but not only). We could also used a Pier infrastructure like the one provided for http://book.seaside.st/book but there is no support for translations. -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Sept. 7, 2010