November 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Slides of 2005, Bruessels?

by Marcus Denker

Hi, Does anyone have slides of the talks of ESUG 2005 (Bruessels)? I am sure they where collected... Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

Nov. 9, 2010

looking for Frank urbach

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi frank could you contact me? because we would like to get access to ODBC on squeaksource. Stef

Nov. 7, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] GSoC Mentor Summit Travel

by Marcus Denker

On Nov 1, 2010, at 7:36 PM, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > Hi all! > > Whom should I send my travel bills to? > Best is board(a)esug.org Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

Nov. 1, 2010

GSoC Mentor Summit Travel

by Dennis Schetinin

Hi all! Whom should I send my travel bills to? -- Dennis Schetinin

Nov. 1, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding?

by stephane ducasse

Hi guys Let me restate clearly the goal of pharo: We want a small, clean kernel. Now it does not mean that we want a smalltalk like one of the 80 :) nor one that is only looking like Smalltalk from far :). We want an innovative Smalltalk. Right now we are re-aligning the current implementation (you know squashing wrong lines and adding abstractions). Of course there are work. We would love to have a UIBuilder (and this is not because of lack of vision) and a lot more. But we want new way to structure program (traits, modules,...), solutions to provide security concerns..... But this is something that needs time to build prototype, evaluate redo, turn them into more robust solutions. So dan if you want to take pharo and run it into JS please go. We are writing a new compiler which can be certainly tweaked to generate jsbytecode (if any). Now Dan may be you should have started to build a smalltalk on Javascript and people may have understood your intentions. >From far it looked like Morphic with a funny (not fun) syntax. Stef PS: in 2001 we could only do anything beside Java, nowadays it seems that the dogma changed again and that we cannot do anything but Javascript. This is not what you said of course I read well english but this is a fun to see cycles.

Nov. 1, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding?

by Gilad Bracha

Hi Dan, Very cool. So let me expand on what I am after. I want to write full scale Newspeak programs that don't know or care about the DOM or the browser and run them in the browser. I want to run that same program natively on a mac or Windows. I also want to run the same program with a UI tweaked for a touchscreen of the appropriate size, natively on a tablet - any tablet. I even want to run the full IDE this way, though that is less crucial. And again, allowing for size and functionality, I want to run Newspeak apps a smartphone. Independent of whether its Android, IOS, Windows 7 or RIM or whatever else. This is a tall order, and of all these things perhaps the browser is the most important, and could subsume the others. And I want it in a mature Newspeak that is secure as well as elegant. We'll see if I get there, and when. End commercial. On Oct 31, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Dan Ingalls wrote: > Hi again - > > I will stop polluting this otherwise sane list, but I can't resist one more thought... > > You know I never left Smalltalk; I'm just using another language right now ;-). One of the early thoughts I had when working on the Lively Kernel was to put a Smalltalk "skin" on top of it, and I'd have a Lively Smalltalk. I was going to release it to SqueakLand as an April Fool's prank, but the day came and went; then a year came and went, and so it goes... > > Meanwhile, Alex Warth sketched a Smalltalk evaluator in OMeta and put it up on his Tin Lizzie site. Anticipating various fun language experiments, we then integrated OMeta (as JavaScript) with the Lively Kernel, and Robert Krahn put together a Lively version of Alex's experiment. You might find it intriguing... > > http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/Dan/OMeta-Smalltalk-Demo.x… > > This should work on Safari, Chrome, Firefox and Opera, with iPad and IE9 working RSN. You should be able to select expressions and evaluate them with cmd-p or something similar (different in different browsers and platforms). If all else fails, you should be able to bring up a menu with cmd-click, and select Text-functions/print-it. Don't forget to scroll the Smalltalk workspace up -- the best examples are out of view. > > So, is this a joke? > > Modern JavaScripts runs at a speed comparable to Squeak > The graphics are resolution-independent and anti-aliased > It runs in almost every browser > You don't need to install it to run > You can save your work on a web page and share it that way too > > Of course it's only a two-day hack, but what if someone actually got serious about it? And what about the synergy with Gilad's interest in compiling Newspeak to JS? For me, I think we could have a lot of fun in the next year. If this tickles your fancy, hop on the Lively Kernel mail list and we'll try to give you some support. The documentation is sparse but the people are friendly. > > All the best > > - Dan > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > Cheers, Gilad

Nov. 1, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding?

by Serge Stinckwich

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Its not a joke. > I would really like to have a full smalltalk support in browser, up to > placing smalltalk in > <script language="smalltalk"> .... > > It is great that JavaScript is prototype-based. And it is shame that > its having such poor C-like syntax. > What is interesting, that people exploiting a message passing with > continuation and blocks-like programming style in javascript, which > closely mimics smalltalk semantics. > > For instance, this is an example from JQuery library: > > $("div.title", wizard).each(function(index) { > $(this) > .next() > .children(":button") > .filter(".next, .previous") > .click(function() { > wizard.changeAccordion("activate", index + > ($(this).is(".next") ? 1 : -1)) > }); > }); > > Looks familiar to us, isnt? And totally alien for C world :) > > This could be easily translated to smalltalk, to something like: > > (JQuery select: 'div.title') do: [:each :index | > ((each next children: ':button') filter: '.next, .previous') click: > [ wizard changeAccordion: ... ] > > > yeah.. keyword selectors require wrapping with (), to do continuation, > but still, its much more clean than js code. > I remember discusison about introducing a special syntax which would > allow to use continuations for keyword selectors, > without need of wrapping then into parethesis. So, code like: > > ((self foo: bar) baz: 1) jump > > could be written as: > > self foo: bar | baz: 1 | jump > > which makes it even more clean and convenient to type, since you don't > have to get back into beginning of message to put > opening paren. Hum, i'm wondering that maybe we should do more advertisement about Smalltalk to the Javascript community. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Nov. 1, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding?

by Igor Stasenko

Its not a joke. I would really like to have a full smalltalk support in browser, up to placing smalltalk in <script language="smalltalk"> .... It is great that JavaScript is prototype-based. And it is shame that its having such poor C-like syntax. What is interesting, that people exploiting a message passing with continuation and blocks-like programming style in javascript, which closely mimics smalltalk semantics. For instance, this is an example from JQuery library: $("div.title", wizard).each(function(index) { $(this) .next() .children(":button") .filter(".next, .previous") .click(function() { wizard.changeAccordion("activate", index + ($(this).is(".next") ? 1 : -1)) }); }); Looks familiar to us, isnt? And totally alien for C world :) This could be easily translated to smalltalk, to something like: (JQuery select: 'div.title') do: [:each :index | ((each next children: ':button') filter: '.next, .previous') click: [ wizard changeAccordion: ... ] yeah.. keyword selectors require wrapping with (), to do continuation, but still, its much more clean than js code. I remember discusison about introducing a special syntax which would allow to use continuations for keyword selectors, without need of wrapping then into parethesis. So, code like: ((self foo: bar) baz: 1) jump could be written as: self foo: bar | baz: 1 | jump which makes it even more clean and convenient to type, since you don't have to get back into beginning of message to put opening paren. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Nov. 1, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by Reza Razavi

Hello Dan, I'd like to thank you for your inspiring observations, and add some information on recent developments inline. At 21:48 30/10/2010, Dan Ingalls wrote: >Good People - > >Adoption of a language, like any other adoption, is generally a >function of the needs and wants of the audience, and the strengths >and weaknesses of the substance being promoted. For better or >worse, this function can be significantly biased at the outset by >marketing. As technologists, we repeatedly underestimate the >importance of marketing and, even when we know we need to promote >our systems, we fail because the skills of marketing are not simply >technical skills. > >Who are our users? >We all have our own answer for this. I'll answer for myself so that >I can be articulate -- these are the users I would like to attract, >or who I feel would find our system valuable if they used it... >Kids at play - ie people 8-16 who are doing fun things >Kids at work - ie students 8-20 who are doing more serious things >like math (including computer science), physics, graphics, music, etc >Computer professionals at play - most of us >Computer professionals at work - most of us > >About the computing context >The computing context has changed a lot over the years. It used to >be personal computers running Mac, Windows or Unix, and it used to >be simple functions like text editing and experiments with >media. Now it is mostly running in "the" browser, and communicating >over the web. A couple of things have remained key values, >though: The ability to create new content simply and directly, and >the ability to pull together existing content flexibly. By >"content" I mean both media and functions (services). The ability >to assemble existing content has been the greatest strength and >weakness of Smalltalk over the years. For internal content, >Smalltalk is unmatched in its ability to make every extension, >whether music, graphics, or a financial model, as natural as a >built-in language feature. For external content, however, Smalltalk >has historically faltered at the edges of its monolithic system. > >What do the users need and want? >The ability to create new content simply and directly, >the ability to assemble existing content flexibly, and >the ability to share any results easily. There is a Smalltalk- and Seaside-based solution for web applications that provide this sort of functionality. In particular, it allows managing and sharing application functionality and executions as content. Here is an example: - URL for the definition of an activity model (user-defined service): <http://www.afacms.com/cats/activities/shopping/Seaside/>http://www.afacms.com/cats/activities/shopping/Seaside/ - URL for one of its executions: <http://www.afacms.com/cats/activities/shopping/Seaside/seaside-trace-1/>http://www.afacms.com/cats/activities/shopping/Seaside/seaside-trace-1/ - URL to the cart items during that execution: <http://www.afacms.com/cats/activities/shopping/Seaside/seaside-trace-1/fill…>http://www.afacms.com/cats/activities/shopping/Seaside/seaside-trace-1/fill… I'd like in particular your attention to the "Twitter & England traffic info communication" example, whose definition and detailed documentation are available via: <http://www.afacms.com/examples>http://www.afacms.com/examples This example wants to show that the distinction between internal and external "functional content" is somehow blurred in this solution, since it allows "wrapping" web services as if they were implemented in Smalltalk. Further explanations and examples may be found online via: <http://www.afacms.com/blog/pontoon-app>http://www.afacms.com/blog/pontoon-app Another application example would be creating websites for online authoring and execution of eToys projects. This would whoever require integrating Lively Kernel libraries into Seaside. >What is important for marketing >An old quote of Alan's is still relevant here: "Simple things >should be simple, and complex things should be possible." Smalltalk >has always suffered from two main barriers: installation and >integration. Once you have it installed, and if you don't need to >access anything outside, it is unmatched in its ability to make >simple things simply, and to achieve complex goals as well. Within >its self-contained context, its image model is perfect for saving, >restoring, and sharing work between sessions, between machines, and >between users. > >In the world of today, people expect any new thing of interest to >spring to life in their browser. In the above-mentioned solution, sophisticated business logic may keep to be coded is Smalltalk, while the application allows online definition and integration of new functionality by end-user programming. End-user defined services are directly represented as executable models. >They expect it to look attractive, cool, powerful; anything but geeky... > <http://emberapp.com/>http://emberapp.com/ > http://www.thecssawards.com/ > <http://cssmania.com/galleries/>http://cssmania.com/galleries/ >You want this, too, right? So we can use "we" in place of "they". >We expect it to be immediately useful. For a computer language, >this means you can immediately try out some expressions and make >something happen. We want this. We are busy, and we don't have >time to download a new environment, figure out a new browser, learn >a new graphics system, right? >We expect it to be incremental - do some work, save it, pick it up >later - we expect the comforts of Smalltalk-style development. >We expect it to be sharable - do something and send it to >someone. It's what we do with email, photos and videos. We >probably want it to be self-sharing, how about your workspace in >your facebook page, and tweets about each cool new thing. Online definition of complex executable models is currently possible. Now, I'm in the process of simplifying yet more the online programming interface so as end-users can implement simple services really simply (without any training). There is no need for ordinary end-users to download or install any piece of software, although, Smalltalk programmers can still update and extend online the application server code. We are currently investigating opportunities for very large deployments for individualized support to Older Adults. Our marketing arguments are summarized here: <http://www.aas-platform.com/about/aas/key-features/>http://www.aas-platform.com/about/aas/key-features/ We try to contribute to the community grow by creating a significant space for development and commercialization of online reusable "atomic" services, in particular for Seaside components and wrappers for web services like those by major web actors. The following web-site is setup and will hopefully develop further in the coming weeks: <http://pontoonity.com/>http://pontoonity.com/ More on potential application to user-generated services may be found here: http://www.aas-platform.com/about/related-work/ugs/ This work relates further to Lively Wiki, as described here: <http://www.rezarazavi.com/about/cv/publications/iwst-2010>http://www.rezarazavi.com/about/cv/publications/iwst-2010 I'd greatly appreciate any feedback from your part, Best regards, /Reza >These are the things that Gilad and I are grappling with, and I >think everyone on this list probably thinks the same way from time >to time. Gilad is trying to fix some of the modularity problems in >Smalltalk and exploit some of its greatest strengths, while figuring >out how to host it in today's (or tomorrow's) browsers. And I've >been playing around with what's possible using JavaScript directly, >but with some Smalltalk comforts like a nice browser, work in a >live editable environment, and save your project state as a web page. > >To return to Gilad's post, >[my interpretation: We don't take the time and effort to explore >new systems, and we don't take the time and effort to make our own >systems easy for others to explore] >>I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. >>It's just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses >>and work hard at fixing them, and hope that some people will find >>it worthwhile to become truly involved. > >I feel the same way. But if you feel the same way from time to >time, perhaps you should start a movement to do something similar, >or see how you could contribute to NewSpeak or the Lively >Kernel; not to abandon Smalltalk but to experiment with how to >carry *its goals* and *your desires* forward. > >Nothing is holding us back > > - D >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Nov. 1, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding?

by Carlos Crosetti

I clicked the console button and is like stuck loading http;//.../lively.JSON.js ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Crosetti" <carlos.crosetti(a)mostar.com.ar> To: "Paolo Bonzini" <bonzini(a)gnu.org>; "Dan Ingalls" <dan(a)squeakland.org> Cc: <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding? >I see the¨"loading" splashbox, it is taking more than 10 minutes from when >started, how much time it takes to load? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paolo Bonzini" <bonzini(a)gnu.org> > To: "Dan Ingalls" <dan(a)squeakland.org> > Cc: <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 8:48 PM > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding? > > >> On 10/31/2010 11:32 PM, Dan Ingalls wrote: >>> http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/Dan/OMeta-Smalltalk-Demo.x… >> >> Doesn't load in Firefox 3.6 (pistons spin forever), crashes the browser >> in Epiphany (WebKit-based). :( >> >> Paolo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >

Nov. 1, 2010