October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not really > annoying for the people, because they deploy their application on the web. > Hence my remark that standard UI is less of an issue on the web :) James Robertson wrote: > > ... Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require > people to get past: > - The prospective user can't use his favorite editor > - The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > What is the developer's favorite editor/IDE and why? As mentioned before, this is all about the User eXperience. The developer probably doesn't care what source code control system is being used, as long as it does the job and is easy to use. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

The Ruby <developer> sees a text editor - the one he picked. The Smalltalk developer sees the Smalltalk browser (etc). My point is that the UI is the first thing the new Smalltalker sees, and it creates an impression. On Oct 29, 2010, at 6:19 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:14 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So >> >> -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think >> -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think > > But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not > really annoying for the people, because they deploy their application > on the web. > > Regards, > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:14 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So > > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not really annoying for the people, because they deploy their application on the web. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require people to get past: -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously On Oct 29, 2010, at 5:05 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > > > Valloud, Andres wrote: >> >> One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI >> framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production >> applications. >> > > This becomes much less of an issue since most development - I know not all:) > - is moving to the web. > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Frank Shearar

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Graham McLeod <mcleod(a)iafrica.com> wrote: > Hi Dennis, Geert, Adres, Serge and other commenters.. > > Doing good UI's is still quite hard and labour intensive - Seaside provides > a great framework, but we are still working pretty much at the level of HTML > / CSS concepts. I would like to see a layer describing logical data > structures e.g. List, Tree, Matrix, Document (sequenced set of objects), > Model (spatially arranged and possibly connected objects) and a visual > editor (or very high level DSL) that allows composition of these into user > interfaces with a publish / subscribe event model and choice of suitable > controls and widgets based upon the logical data type. (this one is probably > a bit too big for a GSOC but may be tackled in pieces. ) Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? frank > Hope some of this makes sense. > Welcome feedback and comments. > Best regards, > > Graham > > Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > … and observations …and questions … mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor Summit > > Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very > pleasant …and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture shock > :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and sending > me there. > Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, we > know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it looks like > everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few knows it still > exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! > it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk > seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show that > for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found language > and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I didn't manage to > set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. > And I've heard many interesting ideas… apparently, organizational ideas > mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just outline some > directions… > Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought I've missed them, but > apparently we didn't do it. At least I found only this page > http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/list. I > didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important to look closer > at the projects we did within GSoC, understand where we succeeded; where we > failed; did we benefit and could we get more; make some plans for the > future... etc. > I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very important for our > small society. Of course, we can't be sure smalltalkers will be invited > again next year. (One of the things I tried to understand at summit but > still I don't: how does Google select mentor organizations?) But this work > will be very helpful, useful, advantageous… what ever. > We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our projects. > Since money are involved here, we have a right to. That's money from Google, > but still. I think it should be a bit different from the way free projects > are evolved within Smalltalk society. Since we have such opportunity we have > to benefit as much as we can. > Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I don't want to > :) but now I understand even better: we have to promote Smalltalk. I know > everybody knows that, but I still want to state it once again. And promoting > is not only about advertising and praising. We should be more open. We > should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other > societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's extremely hard for > me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) But still we have if we don't > want Smalltalk to die. In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open > should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige > of Smalltalk among developers. > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Promoting Smalltalk (was Re: Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code)

by Josef Springer

Thanks for this expressions. I fully agree too !!! We are developing a Business-Process-Management-Suite, called /OfficeTalk/. /OfficeTalk /has won in the past a few awards. One of the highest priority is the GUI and the usability. /OfficeTalk /is made open to systems made with all other technologies (COM, ActiveX, DotNET, Web, aso). If we propagate more of the existing systems, Smalltalk gets more acceptance too ! Josef Springer (JOOPS Informationstechnik GmbH) Noury Bouraqadi wrote: > Thanks Dennis for this detailed feedback. It's important to keep the community informed. > > On 29 oct. 2010, at 05:41, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > >> We should be more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other societies/languages. >> [...] >> In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. >> >> > I fully agree. There are multiple directions to go. > > -Applications : We should develop cool applications that target domains that interest users (e.g. mobile applications, web). The look and feel/ user experience is important to have some impact. A recent really cool example is the Event Planning System developed by the belgian company Inceptive. We need to advertise more such applications to the outside of the community. The on-line videos and slides, blogs and the awards are made for this. Still we need more advertisements in places where we can > > -GUI : This is coupled with the previous item. We need native widgets. Smalltalk developers should be able to applications that comply with the appearance of other applications. Projects such as MARS (Smalltalk software with Mac OS X widgets) is an example. > > -Programming environments : I love the Smalltalk IDE. Still, many developers don't want to change their programming habit. May be not from the beginning. We should be able to develop Smalltalk in an text editor. This was done in GNU Smalltalk and there is also the CORAL initiative. The effort need to be continued. > > -Standard/Mainstream protocols, libraries, and infrastructures. We need to provide a bridge to all important pieces of software (e.g. OpenGL). Web frameworks such as Seaside, Aida are definitely a great step in this direction. > > -Documentation : Both on-line and paper articles and books. Code examples are important. People new to Smalltalk should quickly find some code to copy/paste and test. > > > To sum up, there are already different actions. Still, we need to do more. If you have ideas share them with us. Spending a little of your time in one of these actions would be beneficial to everyone. > > Noury > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Julian Fitzell

Agreed. UI frameworks are an officially certified Hard Problem. :) Julian On 10/29/10, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)cincom.com> wrote: > One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI > framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production > applications. > > On 10/29/2010 1:35 AM, Julian Fitzell wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andres Valloud<avalloud(a)cincom.com> >> wrote: >>>> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >>>> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >>>> and >>>> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there >>>> is >>>> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved >>>> that >>>> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >>>> treated like a black and white movie :) >>> >>> But see, I'm already sold, so I just don't see the point :)... IMO, we >>> will >>> make the most progress in this area by concentrating our efforts on the >>> difficult problems. It makes me happy to see people concerned with how >>> to >>> make an image from scratch, for example. >> >> As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, >> customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most >> people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but >> without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing >> (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any >> chance of being more than a tiny niche (think of WinAmp or VLC - >> neither would have been successful without attractive, intuitive user >> interfaces, even though the real reason I used/use them was for the >> really practical features). >> >> Julian >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Valloud, Andres wrote: > > One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI > framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production > applications. > This becomes much less of an issue since most development - I know not all:) - is moving to the web. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Janko Mivšek

On 29. 10. 2010 10:35, Julian Fitzell wrote: >>> On 29. 10. 2010 09:34, Geert Claes wrote: >>> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >>> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >>> and >>> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is >>> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that >>> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >>> treated like a black and white movie :) > As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, > customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most > people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but > without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing > (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any > chance of being more than a tiny niche Agree completely. Aesthetics is very important moment here, specially in a world where perception is more important than reality, as Graham very nicely shown with his examples. That's why we need to be balanced here, we need to make a better "perception" (look&feel, marketing, documentation,...) but be careful not to forget to our "reality" (technical brilliance), which is actually our stronger point and which is the cause why Smalltalk is resurrecting again and again Best regards Janko -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production applications. On 10/29/2010 1:35 AM, Julian Fitzell wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andres Valloud<avalloud(a)cincom.com> wrote: >>> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >>> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >>> and >>> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is >>> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that >>> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >>> treated like a black and white movie :) >> >> But see, I'm already sold, so I just don't see the point :)... IMO, we will >> make the most progress in this area by concentrating our efforts on the >> difficult problems. It makes me happy to see people concerned with how to >> make an image from scratch, for example. > > As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, > customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most > people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but > without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing > (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any > chance of being more than a tiny niche (think of WinAmp or VLC - > neither would have been successful without attractive, intuitive user > interfaces, even though the real reason I used/use them was for the > really practical features). > > Julian >

Oct. 29, 2010