October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 01:26 PM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of >> Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: >> >> "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use >> (insert text editor or VCS here)" >> >> I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize >> the hurdle there > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ?;-) For the editor there's basically no satisfying solution. With good completion and good tools, it's possible that people will just accept losing their beloved key bindings. (Note that IMHO there's in general a UI problem especially in Squeak/Pharo, it's not just about the bindings, but I don't want to digress). For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

> On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote: > >> It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code > >> with other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as > >> DDL, etc.) and with other people on the team who work on those > >> assets, developers _are_ going to complain. VCS and source code organization is something that has now become standard across all mainstream languages (i.e. Java and C# :->). Your source code should be saved in class files, in a directory structure that mirrors the package/namespace structure. Other assets are stored and versioned in a similar way. You can use any VCSs with any programming language; indeed, you may be more attached to a VCS than a language. You will use one VCS for a project, but you may use multiple languages. Similar things can be said for IDEs and VMs: you probably pick one and stick to it, although you use multiple languages. People choose a programming environment based on (most important first): 1) what everybody else is using 2) what seems familiar to them 3) what is cool 4) what is good Based on that, it's obvious Smalltalk is not going to succeed in a big way in the foreseeable future. What we need to look at are what areas we lose out on in 2), and could be changed to fit what everybody else is doing, without losing much in 4). To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus on the low-hanging fruit. Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, interface with standard VCS, and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

No, we would need to find a way to add curly braces ... Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com On Oct 29, 2010 1:27 PM, "Serge Stinckwich" <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:22 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I think Paolo is right... So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they will be happy ? ;-) -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk h... _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http...

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

Not so much :) Editor preference seems to be somewhat religious in nature :) On Oct 29, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:22 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: >> >> "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use (insert text editor or VCS here)" >> >> I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize the hurdle there > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ? ;-) > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:22 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: > > "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use (insert text editor or VCS here)" > > I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize the hurdle there So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they will be happy ? ;-) -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use (insert text editor or VCS here)" I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize the hurdle there On Oct 29, 2010, at 7:14 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >>> It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with >>> other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and >>> with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers >>> _are_ going to complain. >> >> That's why I said, "as long as it does the job" :) > > Heh, so I was implying incorrectly that, as far as you were concerned, VCS that cared only about Smalltalk source did the job. :) > >>> Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi >>> to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser ... >> >> The biggest target audience are probably those who expect mouse-based (or >> touch gesture) interaction though > > Not sure here... sure there's a lot of people using TextMate, but there's a lot of people using vi too. Anybody who had a past career as a sysadmin is likely to have picked it up---and likely stayed with it for Ruby/Python jobs too. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with >> other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and >> with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers >> _are_ going to complain. > > That's why I said, "as long as it does the job" :) Heh, so I was implying incorrectly that, as far as you were concerned, VCS that cared only about Smalltalk source did the job. :) >> Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi >> to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser ... > > The biggest target audience are probably those who expect mouse-based (or > touch gesture) interaction though Not sure here... sure there's a lot of people using TextMate, but there's a lot of people using vi too. Anybody who had a past career as a sysadmin is likely to have picked it up---and likely stayed with it for Ruby/Python jobs too. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Geert Claes wrote: > > ...The developer probably doesn't care what source code control system is > being used, as long as it does the job and is easy to use. > Paolo Bonzini wrote: > > It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with > other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and > with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers > _are_ going to complain. > That's why I said, "as long as it does the job" :) Paolo Bonzini wrote: > > Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi > to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser ... > The biggest target audience are probably those who expect mouse-based (or touch gesture) interaction though -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 12:29 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> ... Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require >> people to get past: >> - The prospective user can't use his favorite editor >> - The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > > What is the developer's favorite editor/IDE and why? As mentioned before, > this is all about the User eXperience. The developer probably doesn't care > what source code control system is being used, as long as it does the job > and is easy to use. It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers _are_ going to complain. Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser; I do it only because of the inspectors and debugger etc. For a newbie, however you can reasonably expect resistence, especially if the UI shows rough edges (completion in Pharo never seems to use the keyboard shortcuts I'd use, for example). Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

Well I guess we can quite quickly create huge list of things that need to be done. But since we are a very small community there is no chance we could attack all of them, we need to concentrate on few ones that provide most bang for the buck so to say. I think that we need to thank web tools (Seaside, Aida ..) for the small renaissance we are having, and my 2c is that we need to focus on that. It is growth area where inovation counts, and where we stand some chance. So we need more ready to be made components, tutorials, examples, get more integration with various web development services, perfect integration with javascript and css libraries and gadgets, NoSQL databases, message queues, HTML 5 and such. If we make reasonable progress there, some fresh developers might get attracted and other things could be addressed. Another growth area is mobile, but I think we still do not have perspective entry there like in web domain. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010