October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > > People choose a programming environment based on (most important > > first): > > > > 1) what everybody else is using > > 2) what seems familiar to them > > 3) what is cool > > 4) what is good > > IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First > environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment > can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it > requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our > priority zero. To some extent that intersects with 3), and I'd include it in 4) too: what you can produce, and how productive you are in doing it. I stand by my claim that 1) and 2) are more important in achieving mass success. 4) just helps guarantee a long life. Mind you, 1) should be rephrased to "what everybody else seems to be using", and a big score on 3) can outweigh a smaller difference on 1) and 2) over time: your message will get media coverage and some evaluators, helping to address 2) and 1) bit by bit. Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT >> backend? > > It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo > could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. There would be also one trivial, but possibly important social aspect. Some Smalltalk projects might be hosted on GitHub, and become visible to larger audience. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > People choose a programming environment based on (most important first): > > 1) what everybody else is using > 2) what seems familiar to them > 3) what is cool > 4) what is good IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our priority zero. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> ... For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend >> for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per >> package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. >> >> Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in >> http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello<-> GST+git >> bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... > > Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT > backend? It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by 'Markus Rips'

>Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code >panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a >SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? > >frank Hi Frank seaBreeze is such a tool for seaside. If someone is interested, have a look at: http://seabreeze.heeg.de/ Markus ________________________________ Markus Rips * Senior Consultant / certified Scrum Master * markus.rips(a)heeg.de phone: +49 231 9 75 99 24 * fax: +49 231 9 75 99 20 Georg Heeg eK Dortmund Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

Jan Vrany wrote: > > On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > > > interface with standard VCS > > Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion. > > > > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? > > Smalltalk/X for instance :-) Thanks! But to return to my criteria: 1) what everybody else is using 2) what seems familiar to them 3) what is cool 4) what is good Even in the Smalltalk community, Smalltalk/X isn't 1). And looking at the web pages, with not even a single picture of the IDE or Smalltalk/X applications on the Products > Smalltalk/X pages, it may find itself in pretty big trouble on 3). That's a real shame, in an era when even one-person companies and research projects have smart videos showing off their products. Particularly since from what I hear, Smalltalk/X does pretty well on 4). Sorry if that sounds harsh - I do understand the other side of the coin, i.e. that there's hardly any money to be made by selling software development environments these days. Good luck to eXept with expecco, which I guess is what they focus on now. Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Paolo Bonzini-2 wrote: > > ... For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend > for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per > package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. > > Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in > http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git > bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... > Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT backend? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Jan Vrany

On Fri, 2010-10-29 at 13:48 +0200, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in > > Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based > > development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing > > debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based > > development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on > > another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus > > on the low-hanging fruit. > > > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > > interface with standard VCS > > GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now) > hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement > ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically > borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS > hooks should not be hard. > > Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to > something more modern. > Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion. > > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? Smalltalk/X for instance :-) Jan > > And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? > > GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there. > It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in > Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based > development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing > debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based > development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on > another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus > on the low-hanging fruit. > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > interface with standard VCS GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now) hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS hooks should not be hard. Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to something more modern. > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? > And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there. It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

James Robertson wrote: > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think I don't think these are the major issues these days. VW's widgets are close to standard widgets these days, and most other apps' widgets diverge from the standards anyway. Squeak will suffer far more, as its look is further from the standard (last time I looked). Most IDEs are very much "all in one window", so I think VW suffers more there. The single window of Pharo and Squeak feels odd to a VW user, not to a normal person :-). Of course Pharo and Squeak could do more to have a single big IDE window with fixed panes, rather than the multiple floating windows-within-a-window that they had last time I looked. Then again, the CodeBubbles demo has got people excited, and that's pretty close to a Smalltalk "multiple browser windows" model. http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm Steve

Oct. 29, 2010