October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

Gilad, On 10/30/2010 2:17 AM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > In Newspeak, the Hopscotch browser maintains a history of everywhere > you've been, which is always one click away - which means any class, > object, workspace etc. is at most two clicks away at all times. I'm > not sure if this is what you meant I mean more like seeing an actual graph with nodes so I can see the shape of the traversal. I don't know if this would help in practice, but I'd like to try it. Or has this approach been tried before and I just missed it? Andres.

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/30/2010 11:17 AM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > So, what am I doing wrong? Newspeak is open source, it runs Squeak > Smalltalk as well as Newspeak, and provides a very Smalltalk-like > experience for those who want it, while addressing many of the issues > that have been brought up in this thread. Even so, very few > Smalltalkers are interested in working with Newspeak. I've honestly been tempted many times to see what it means to port GNU Smalltalk to Newspeak the same way Squeak runs on top of it. Time is unfortunately always a problem. Paolo

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Gilad Bracha

Andres, On Oct 30, 2010, at 12:35 AM, Andres Valloud wrote: > I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist? In Newspeak, the Hopscotch browser maintains a history of everywhere you've been, which is always one click away - which means any class, object, workspace etc. is at most two clicks away at all times. I'm not sure if this is what you meant While I'm on the topic of Newspeak, here are some observations that are perhaps relevant to this thread. Be aware that I am engaged in shameless self promotion. a. Newspeak has a syntax. So: b You can edit Newspeak in whatever editor you want. The IDE runs in an image in the classic Smalltalk way, but also saves each class you modify in a file automatically. c. The IDE has integrated support for source control. Currently this uses a svn-Monticello integration, but the next phase will phase out Monticello and work directly with mercurial, git or svn. Furthermore e. Newspeak introduced the Alien FFI, which allows us to use the rest of the world's software. Case in point: we recently needed to talk to some software over https. Squeak does not support this natively, and requires a plugin, which is by its own documentation unstable. We just call out to libCurl. f. Using said aliens, we support a portable native GUI. Looks great on a modern Windows machine. We could support mac as well, if we had more resources. But, as Andres implies, this is fighting the last war. Hence: g. We are getting close to running the exact same GUI in a browser. h. As far as deployment goes, we can deploy apps independent of the IDE - either via the browser or as executables (on Windows) or, in principle, anything else. That is because the language actually supports modularity. Some of these features need more work to reach full maturity. This could happen sooner if we got more volunteers. While the Smalltalk community might be a good source of such volunteers, I recognize it isn't happening. So, what am I doing wrong? Newspeak is open source, it runs Squeak Smalltalk as well as Newspeak, and provides a very Smalltalk-like experience for those who want it, while addressing many of the issues that have been brought up in this thread. Even so, very few Smalltalkers are interested in working with Newspeak. > > On 10/30/2010 12:29 AM, Marten Feldtmann wrote: >> James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all >> these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles >> and be happy with it. >> >> * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains >> about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be >> accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the >> area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement >> in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps >> like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) >> systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives >> me mad. >> >> * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems >> like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. >> Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far >> superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all >> Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so >> attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one >> Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. >> >> * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, >> missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. >> The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not >> understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. >> >> * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, >> multithreading area ... >> >> * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... >> >> * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out >> of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. >> >> * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due >> to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use >> already available software components. >> >> Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they >> use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are >> available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime >> license problems). >> >> Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: >>> I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the >>> Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. >>> However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a >>> personal use standpoint cares. So >>> >>> -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think >>> -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think >>> >>> I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - >>> and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. >>> Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require >>> people to get past: >>> >>> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor >>> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools >>> >>> the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I >>> recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, >>> the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > Cheers, Gilad

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Peter Hugosson-Miller

That sounds exactly like the TrailBlazer browser in VisualAge. -- Best regards, Peter Hugosson-Miller On Sat, October 30, 2010 09:35, Andres Valloud wrote: > I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I > have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me > from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist?

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist? On 10/30/2010 12:29 AM, Marten Feldtmann wrote: > James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all > these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles > and be happy with it. > > * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains > about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be > accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the > area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement > in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps > like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) > systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives > me mad. > > * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems > like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. > Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far > superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all > Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so > attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one > Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. > > * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, > missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. > The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not > understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. > > * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, > multithreading area ... > > * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... > > * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out > of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. > > * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due > to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use > already available software components. > > Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they > use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are > available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime > license problems). > > Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: >> I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the >> Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. >> However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a >> personal use standpoint cares. So >> >> -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think >> -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think >> >> I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - >> and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. >> Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require >> people to get past: >> >> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor >> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools >> >> the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I >> recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, >> the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Marten Feldtmann

James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles and be happy with it. * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives me mad. * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, multithreading area ... * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use already available software components. Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime license problems). Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: > I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So > > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think > > I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require people to get past: > > -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor > -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > > the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Georg Heeg wrote: > > Actually SeaBreeze does exactly what you propose here. For details see > seabreeze.heeg.de. It is a UI Editor and framework on top of Seaside. > I just find the SeaBreeze Cincom software license agreement is just a bit of an awkward hurdle although I do like some concepts SeaBreeze and WebVelocity are addressing. The seabreeze.heeg.de website also really needs an up-to-date look and feel. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > It's definitely a step towards that, though. Does your experience with > CVST suggest that it's better to do both steps at the same time? Fair enough, but I would hope that whatever solution is chosen, it is open towards eventually being able to support cross-dialect projects. > I would be worried that including in an "initial battle plan" an > editor-friendly syntax would lead to endless discussions and no code > produced. Yes, but I'm more worried about "real" vs "fake" integration, than I am about particulars of a syntax. With fake integration all you'll get with git is push, pull and commit, leaving all the rest of the capabilities behind. That will not make us a good team player.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Sean P. DeNigris

SergeStinckwich wrote: > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ? ;-) > If I had VI key bindings when I started using Squeak, it would have eased my adoption greatly - it was really hard for me to give up the power and efficiency of doing everything without taking my fingers off the keyboard. One of the answers I got was that because good Smalltalk methods are short, you don't need them - ha ha. So we have our own religion, too :) In actuality, this just makes the dramatic productivity increase the key bindings offer less. But here's the joke - the SVI project provides VI bindings. Here's another, Lukas showed a git interface at ESUG. A third? The GTK bindings mentioned were originally in Squeak, but there was no interest (per steph). To me, the primary issue is an inability to use and improve the things that we *already* have because: * I can't understand the intention of code - no tests and documentation * I don't know they exist - no central place/process which includes the above It seems the pattern is: 1. work on something awesome 2. let it disappear into squeaksource, because no one can find it, or figure out how to use it 3. 5 years later, have someone else do the same awesome thing from scratch 4. repeat step 2 my 2c Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 05:58 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > "Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: >> Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside >> Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the >> integration with the tool is kind of fake. > > Sure, but that just helps you to do part of a project in smalltalk, > it doesn't help much with attracting new people to Smalltalk. It's definitely a step towards that, though. Does your experience with CVST suggest that it's better to do both steps at the same time? I would be worried that including in an "initial battle plan" an editor-friendly syntax would lead to endless discussions and no code produced. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010