October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 01:26 PM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of >> Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: >> >> "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use >> (insert text editor or VCS here)" >> >> I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize >> the hurdle there > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ?;-) For the editor there's basically no satisfying solution. With good completion and good tools, it's possible that people will just accept losing their beloved key bindings. (Note that IMHO there's in general a UI problem especially in Squeak/Pharo, it's not just about the bindings, but I don't want to digress). For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

> On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote: > >> It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code > >> with other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as > >> DDL, etc.) and with other people on the team who work on those > >> assets, developers _are_ going to complain. VCS and source code organization is something that has now become standard across all mainstream languages (i.e. Java and C# :->). Your source code should be saved in class files, in a directory structure that mirrors the package/namespace structure. Other assets are stored and versioned in a similar way. You can use any VCSs with any programming language; indeed, you may be more attached to a VCS than a language. You will use one VCS for a project, but you may use multiple languages. Similar things can be said for IDEs and VMs: you probably pick one and stick to it, although you use multiple languages. People choose a programming environment based on (most important first): 1) what everybody else is using 2) what seems familiar to them 3) what is cool 4) what is good Based on that, it's obvious Smalltalk is not going to succeed in a big way in the foreseeable future. What we need to look at are what areas we lose out on in 2), and could be changed to fit what everybody else is doing, without losing much in 4). To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus on the low-hanging fruit. Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, interface with standard VCS, and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

No, we would need to find a way to add curly braces ... Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com On Oct 29, 2010 1:27 PM, "Serge Stinckwich" <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:22 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I think Paolo is right... So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they will be happy ? ;-) -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk h... _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http...

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

Not so much :) Editor preference seems to be somewhat religious in nature :) On Oct 29, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:22 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: >> >> "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use (insert text editor or VCS here)" >> >> I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize the hurdle there > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ? ;-) > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:22 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: > > "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use (insert text editor or VCS here)" > > I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize the hurdle there So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they will be happy ? ;-) -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

I think Paolo is right here. I presented Smalltalk to a bunch of Ruby user groups in 2009, and the reactions were pretty similar: "That's way cool (especially the debugger), but why can't I use (insert text editor or VCS here)" I'm not suggesting that we ditch the image; just that we recognize the hurdle there On Oct 29, 2010, at 7:14 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >>> It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with >>> other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and >>> with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers >>> _are_ going to complain. >> >> That's why I said, "as long as it does the job" :) > > Heh, so I was implying incorrectly that, as far as you were concerned, VCS that cared only about Smalltalk source did the job. :) > >>> Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi >>> to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser ... >> >> The biggest target audience are probably those who expect mouse-based (or >> touch gesture) interaction though > > Not sure here... sure there's a lot of people using TextMate, but there's a lot of people using vi too. Anybody who had a past career as a sysadmin is likely to have picked it up---and likely stayed with it for Ruby/Python jobs too. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with >> other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and >> with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers >> _are_ going to complain. > > That's why I said, "as long as it does the job" :) Heh, so I was implying incorrectly that, as far as you were concerned, VCS that cared only about Smalltalk source did the job. :) >> Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi >> to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser ... > > The biggest target audience are probably those who expect mouse-based (or > touch gesture) interaction though Not sure here... sure there's a lot of people using TextMate, but there's a lot of people using vi too. Anybody who had a past career as a sysadmin is likely to have picked it up---and likely stayed with it for Ruby/Python jobs too. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Geert Claes wrote: > > ...The developer probably doesn't care what source code control system is > being used, as long as it does the job and is easy to use. > Paolo Bonzini wrote: > > It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with > other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and > with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers > _are_ going to complain. > That's why I said, "as long as it does the job" :) Paolo Bonzini wrote: > > Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi > to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser ... > The biggest target audience are probably those who expect mouse-based (or touch gesture) interaction though -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 12:29 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> ... Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require >> people to get past: >> - The prospective user can't use his favorite editor >> - The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > > What is the developer's favorite editor/IDE and why? As mentioned before, > this is all about the User eXperience. The developer probably doesn't care > what source code control system is being used, as long as it does the job > and is easy to use. It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code with other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as DDL, etc.) and with other people on the team who work on those assets, developers _are_ going to complain. Regarding editors, it takes me a while to rewire my muscle memory from vi to mouse-based action in a Smalltalk browser; I do it only because of the inspectors and debugger etc. For a newbie, however you can reasonably expect resistence, especially if the UI shows rough edges (completion in Pharo never seems to use the keyboard shortcuts I'd use, for example). Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

Well I guess we can quite quickly create huge list of things that need to be done. But since we are a very small community there is no chance we could attack all of them, we need to concentrate on few ones that provide most bang for the buck so to say. I think that we need to thank web tools (Seaside, Aida ..) for the small renaissance we are having, and my 2c is that we need to focus on that. It is growth area where inovation counts, and where we stand some chance. So we need more ready to be made components, tutorials, examples, get more integration with various web development services, perfect integration with javascript and css libraries and gadgets, NoSQL databases, message queues, HTML 5 and such. If we make reasonable progress there, some fresh developers might get attracted and other things could be addressed. Another growth area is mobile, but I think we still do not have perspective entry there like in web domain. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not really > annoying for the people, because they deploy their application on the web. > Hence my remark that standard UI is less of an issue on the web :) James Robertson wrote: > > ... Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require > people to get past: > - The prospective user can't use his favorite editor > - The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > What is the developer's favorite editor/IDE and why? As mentioned before, this is all about the User eXperience. The developer probably doesn't care what source code control system is being used, as long as it does the job and is easy to use. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

The Ruby <developer> sees a text editor - the one he picked. The Smalltalk developer sees the Smalltalk browser (etc). My point is that the UI is the first thing the new Smalltalker sees, and it creates an impression. On Oct 29, 2010, at 6:19 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:14 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So >> >> -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think >> -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think > > But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not > really annoying for the people, because they deploy their application > on the web. > > Regards, > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:14 PM, James Robertson <jarober(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So > > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not really annoying for the people, because they deploy their application on the web. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by James Robertson

I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require people to get past: -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously On Oct 29, 2010, at 5:05 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > > > Valloud, Andres wrote: >> >> One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI >> framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production >> applications. >> > > This becomes much less of an issue since most development - I know not all:) > - is moving to the web. > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Frank Shearar

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Graham McLeod <mcleod(a)iafrica.com> wrote: > Hi Dennis, Geert, Adres, Serge and other commenters.. > > Doing good UI's is still quite hard and labour intensive - Seaside provides > a great framework, but we are still working pretty much at the level of HTML > / CSS concepts. I would like to see a layer describing logical data > structures e.g. List, Tree, Matrix, Document (sequenced set of objects), > Model (spatially arranged and possibly connected objects) and a visual > editor (or very high level DSL) that allows composition of these into user > interfaces with a publish / subscribe event model and choice of suitable > controls and widgets based upon the logical data type. (this one is probably > a bit too big for a GSOC but may be tackled in pieces. ) Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? frank > Hope some of this makes sense. > Welcome feedback and comments. > Best regards, > > Graham > > Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > … and observations …and questions … mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor Summit > > Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very > pleasant …and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture shock > :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and sending > me there. > Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, we > know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it looks like > everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few knows it still > exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! > it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk > seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show that > for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found language > and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I didn't manage to > set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. > And I've heard many interesting ideas… apparently, organizational ideas > mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just outline some > directions… > Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought I've missed them, but > apparently we didn't do it. At least I found only this page > http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/list. I > didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important to look closer > at the projects we did within GSoC, understand where we succeeded; where we > failed; did we benefit and could we get more; make some plans for the > future... etc. > I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very important for our > small society. Of course, we can't be sure smalltalkers will be invited > again next year. (One of the things I tried to understand at summit but > still I don't: how does Google select mentor organizations?) But this work > will be very helpful, useful, advantageous… what ever. > We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our projects. > Since money are involved here, we have a right to. That's money from Google, > but still. I think it should be a bit different from the way free projects > are evolved within Smalltalk society. Since we have such opportunity we have > to benefit as much as we can. > Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I don't want to > :) but now I understand even better: we have to promote Smalltalk. I know > everybody knows that, but I still want to state it once again. And promoting > is not only about advertising and praising. We should be more open. We > should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other > societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's extremely hard for > me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) But still we have if we don't > want Smalltalk to die. In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open > should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige > of Smalltalk among developers. > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Promoting Smalltalk (was Re: Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code)

by Josef Springer

Thanks for this expressions. I fully agree too !!! We are developing a Business-Process-Management-Suite, called /OfficeTalk/. /OfficeTalk /has won in the past a few awards. One of the highest priority is the GUI and the usability. /OfficeTalk /is made open to systems made with all other technologies (COM, ActiveX, DotNET, Web, aso). If we propagate more of the existing systems, Smalltalk gets more acceptance too ! Josef Springer (JOOPS Informationstechnik GmbH) Noury Bouraqadi wrote: > Thanks Dennis for this detailed feedback. It's important to keep the community informed. > > On 29 oct. 2010, at 05:41, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > >> We should be more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other societies/languages. >> [...] >> In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. >> >> > I fully agree. There are multiple directions to go. > > -Applications : We should develop cool applications that target domains that interest users (e.g. mobile applications, web). The look and feel/ user experience is important to have some impact. A recent really cool example is the Event Planning System developed by the belgian company Inceptive. We need to advertise more such applications to the outside of the community. The on-line videos and slides, blogs and the awards are made for this. Still we need more advertisements in places where we can > > -GUI : This is coupled with the previous item. We need native widgets. Smalltalk developers should be able to applications that comply with the appearance of other applications. Projects such as MARS (Smalltalk software with Mac OS X widgets) is an example. > > -Programming environments : I love the Smalltalk IDE. Still, many developers don't want to change their programming habit. May be not from the beginning. We should be able to develop Smalltalk in an text editor. This was done in GNU Smalltalk and there is also the CORAL initiative. The effort need to be continued. > > -Standard/Mainstream protocols, libraries, and infrastructures. We need to provide a bridge to all important pieces of software (e.g. OpenGL). Web frameworks such as Seaside, Aida are definitely a great step in this direction. > > -Documentation : Both on-line and paper articles and books. Code examples are important. People new to Smalltalk should quickly find some code to copy/paste and test. > > > To sum up, there are already different actions. Still, we need to do more. If you have ideas share them with us. Spending a little of your time in one of these actions would be beneficial to everyone. > > Noury > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Julian Fitzell

Agreed. UI frameworks are an officially certified Hard Problem. :) Julian On 10/29/10, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)cincom.com> wrote: > One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI > framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production > applications. > > On 10/29/2010 1:35 AM, Julian Fitzell wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andres Valloud<avalloud(a)cincom.com> >> wrote: >>>> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >>>> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >>>> and >>>> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there >>>> is >>>> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved >>>> that >>>> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >>>> treated like a black and white movie :) >>> >>> But see, I'm already sold, so I just don't see the point :)... IMO, we >>> will >>> make the most progress in this area by concentrating our efforts on the >>> difficult problems. It makes me happy to see people concerned with how >>> to >>> make an image from scratch, for example. >> >> As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, >> customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most >> people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but >> without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing >> (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any >> chance of being more than a tiny niche (think of WinAmp or VLC - >> neither would have been successful without attractive, intuitive user >> interfaces, even though the real reason I used/use them was for the >> really practical features). >> >> Julian >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Valloud, Andres wrote: > > One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI > framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production > applications. > This becomes much less of an issue since most development - I know not all:) - is moving to the web. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Janko Mivšek

On 29. 10. 2010 10:35, Julian Fitzell wrote: >>> On 29. 10. 2010 09:34, Geert Claes wrote: >>> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >>> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >>> and >>> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is >>> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that >>> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >>> treated like a black and white movie :) > As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, > customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most > people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but > without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing > (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any > chance of being more than a tiny niche Agree completely. Aesthetics is very important moment here, specially in a world where perception is more important than reality, as Graham very nicely shown with his examples. That's why we need to be balanced here, we need to make a better "perception" (look&feel, marketing, documentation,...) but be careful not to forget to our "reality" (technical brilliance), which is actually our stronger point and which is the cause why Smalltalk is resurrecting again and again Best regards Janko -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

One such difficult problem would be to make a visually compelling UI framework, fully capable of supporting and deploying real production applications. On 10/29/2010 1:35 AM, Julian Fitzell wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andres Valloud<avalloud(a)cincom.com> wrote: >>> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >>> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >>> and >>> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is >>> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that >>> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >>> treated like a black and white movie :) >> >> But see, I'm already sold, so I just don't see the point :)... IMO, we will >> make the most progress in this area by concentrating our efforts on the >> difficult problems. It makes me happy to see people concerned with how to >> make an image from scratch, for example. > > As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, > customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most > people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but > without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing > (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any > chance of being more than a tiny niche (think of WinAmp or VLC - > neither would have been successful without attractive, intuitive user > interfaces, even though the real reason I used/use them was for the > really practical features). > > Julian >

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Julian Fitzell

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)cincom.com> wrote: >> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: >> intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look >> and >> feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is >> still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that >> much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being >> treated like a black and white movie :) > > But see, I'm already sold, so I just don't see the point :)... IMO, we will > make the most progress in this area by concentrating our efforts on the > difficult problems. It makes me happy to see people concerned with how to > make an image from scratch, for example. As someone who spends much of my time dealing with Smalltalk users, customers, and prospects, I can say that it *does* matter to most people. Solving difficult problems is a very valuable thing to do, but without doing it in an environment that is broadly appealing (visually, UX, etc. as Geert says) Smalltalk will never have any chance of being more than a tiny niche (think of WinAmp or VLC - neither would have been successful without attractive, intuitive user interfaces, even though the real reason I used/use them was for the really practical features). Julian

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Promoting Smalltalk

by Geert Claes

Noury Bouraqadi-2 wrote: > > -Applications : We should develop cool applications that target domains > that interest users (e.g. mobile applications, web). The look and feel/ > user experience is important to have some impact. A recent really cool > example is the Event Planning System developed by the belgian company > Inceptive... > +1 Noury Bouraqadi-2 wrote: > > -Programming environments : I love the Smalltalk IDE. Still, many > developers don't want to change their programming habit. ... > Smalltalkers do love their powerful IDE, but to the average newcomer it is - compared to other IDE's these days - certainly far from being intuitive. Noury Bouraqadi-2 wrote: > > -Documentation : Both on-line and paper articles and books. Code examples > are important. People new to Smalltalk should quickly find some code to > copy/paste and test. > Yes, I reckon a better, easier to use project/code sharing infrastructure (replacing SqueakSource) is required with more useful educational sample projects. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Promoting Smalltalk (was Re: Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code)

by Andres Valloud

> -Standard/Mainstream protocols, libraries, and infrastructures. We > need to provide a bridge to all important pieces of software (e.g. > OpenGL). With respect to bridging to other languages in particular, we need to be careful not to impose a Smalltalk POV on things that are not Smalltalk. For instance, the community of the "foreign" language targeted by an FFI is not going to be impressed by our efforts if they see their language misrepresented or misunderstood. This is only fair, if some other language wrote an FFI into Smalltalk, we wouldn't like this other FFI to misrepresent Smalltalk either. > People like computer scientists and modelers who are trying to solve fundamental problems, get the data structures right, get the algorithms right etc. are far more likely to look past the gloss and glitz and appreciate the power and capabilities of a language like Smalltalk. Yes, and in some areas I think we could be doing a better job at promoting Smalltalk to those people. > What saddened me was that the projects had great looking UI's and most were available as both desktop and web applications, but the fundamental functionality, integrity, sophistication of systems and thought in design was actually at a lower standard than we had a decade ago. I hope we manage to stay as far away from that as possible, for otherwise we would not be leveraging Smalltalk's advantages when dealing with difficult problems. And it's hard to ignore people who consistently deal with difficult problems successfully... Andres.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Graham McLeod

Hi Dennis, Geert, Adres, Serge and other commenters.. I used to teach information systems at the University of Cape Town, where final year students do an industry project. I visited their project demonstration expo yesterday as a a guest. I last taught there in 2003, and on that course around 2000, so it is just ten years since the last projects I supervised directly. What saddened me was that the projects had great looking UI's and most were available as both desktop and web applications, but the fundamental functionality, integrity, sophistication of systems and thought in design was actually at a lower standard than we had a decade ago. I even saw interfaces where it would require software changes to add a new product category, for example. The new shininess is largely due to the use of new tools such as Visual Studio, Web Frameworks (think JQuery, ExtJs etc. ) and new browser and OS skins (Chrome / Windows 7 etc. ). Unfortunately, like when meeting someone, or dating, first impressions count. Students (and many commercial developers and their managers who hold budgets) are impressed by shiny new toys. If these are proffered by professional looking marketing people at fancy functions at apparently successful companies (e.g. Microsoft, Oracle..) then they are all the more impressed. People like computer scientists and modelers who are trying to solve fundamental problems, get the data structures right, get the algorithms right etc. are far more likely to look past the gloss and glitz and appreciate the power and capabilities of a language like Smalltalk. So, what to do? I think there are a number of good things we can leverage, and some ideas: * Push the variants of Smalltalk that _do_ look good - these include Pharo, VisualWorks on the desktop, Dolphin etc. * Show the power of the IDEs and contrast these with the clumsy bulkiness of something like Eclipse. Here we must be careful, because there are other very slick products out there, including Visual Studio (it _is_ very pretty :| ) * Push the web capable variants (pretty much all the Smalltalks with Seaside or Aida) - many people are surprised at how well Smalltalk "does" web * Show developers the power of the language - especially the ability to create a "domain friendly" language at a level of abstraction that reduces the code required for solutions dramatically * Create literature and make it widely available on project success stories and language productivity (properly measured - e.g. function points per staff month) Interestingly, I recently was exposed to a large and "successful" Java project in an assurance environment. When we measured the developer productivity, it was about 25% lower than we were getting with mainframe COBOL in the late '70s! * And some ideas: o Link Smalltalk to "sexy" topics that have current mindshare - e.g. CloudFork is a good example. o I would like to see a GSOC project to address semantic triple store capabilities and a sematic web application of these - think Freebase o Doing good UI's is still quite hard and labour intensive - Seaside provides a great framework, but we are still working pretty much at the level of HTML / CSS concepts. I would like to see a layer describing logical data structures e.g. List, Tree, Matrix, Document (sequenced set of objects), Model (spatially arranged and possibly connected objects) and a visual editor (or very high level DSL) that allows composition of these into user interfaces with a publish / subscribe event model and choice of suitable controls and widgets based upon the logical data type. (this one is probably a bit too big for a GSOC but may be tackled in pieces. ) o We should also try to put together really rich / capable development images which are easily accessible / one click install and still small enough to be grasped reasonably easily by someone new to the environment. These could include tools like: pharo, sunit, seaside, (some easy clean persistence layer), magritte, pier, swakom, moose, glamour on steroides (see previous point). Maybe integrating these tools and providing a nice dashboard could be another good GSOC target.. Hope some of this makes sense. Welcome feedback and comments. Best regards, Graham Dennis Schetinin wrote: > … and observations …and questions … mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor Summit > > 1. Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS > :) Very pleasant …and very hard for me: so many people, language > and culture shock :) Great experience for me personally. Thank > ESUG for choosing and sending me there. > 2. Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new > actually, we know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) > Seriously: actually, it looks like everybody knows Smalltalk > (they know it existed I mean; few knows it still exists), but it > is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! it's > cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take > Smalltalk seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But > we have to show that for others. And I found myself unable to do > that there. I found language and, more likely, culture barrier > is too big to overcome. I didn't manage to set up a two-way > communication with others. So I listened mostly. > 3. And I've heard many interesting ideas… apparently, > organizational ideas mostly. I need some time to process them. > So, for now I'll just outline some directions… > 4. Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought I've missed them, > but apparently we didn't do it. At least I found only this page > http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/list. > I didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important > to look closer at the projects we did within GSoC, understand > where we succeeded; where we failed; did we benefit and could we > get more; make some plans for the future... etc. > 5. I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very > important for our small society. Of course, we can't be sure > smalltalkers will be invited again next year. (One of the things > I tried to understand at summit but still I don't: how does > Google select mentor organizations?) But this work will be very > helpful, useful, advantageous… what ever. > 6. We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our > projects. Since money are involved here, we have a right to. > That's money from Google, but still. I think it should be a bit > different from the way free projects are evolved within > Smalltalk society. Since we have such opportunity we have to > benefit as much as we can. > 7. Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I > don't want to :) but now I understand even better: we have to > promote Smalltalk. I know everybody knows that, but I still want > to state it once again. And promoting is not only about > advertising and praising. We should be more open. We should find > a way to start some cooperative projects with other > societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's > extremely hard for me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) > But still we have if we don't want Smalltalk to die. In general, > it looks like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, > and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk > among developers. > > > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 29, 2010

Promoting Smalltalk (was Re: Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code)

by Noury Bouraqadi

Thanks Dennis for this detailed feedback. It's important to keep the community informed. On 29 oct. 2010, at 05:41, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > We should be more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other societies/languages. > [...] > In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. > I fully agree. There are multiple directions to go. -Applications : We should develop cool applications that target domains that interest users (e.g. mobile applications, web). The look and feel/ user experience is important to have some impact. A recent really cool example is the Event Planning System developed by the belgian company Inceptive. We need to advertise more such applications to the outside of the community. The on-line videos and slides, blogs and the awards are made for this. Still we need more advertisements in places where we can -GUI : This is coupled with the previous item. We need native widgets. Smalltalk developers should be able to applications that comply with the appearance of other applications. Projects such as MARS (Smalltalk software with Mac OS X widgets) is an example. -Programming environments : I love the Smalltalk IDE. Still, many developers don't want to change their programming habit. May be not from the beginning. We should be able to develop Smalltalk in an text editor. This was done in GNU Smalltalk and there is also the CORAL initiative. The effort need to be continued. -Standard/Mainstream protocols, libraries, and infrastructures. We need to provide a bridge to all important pieces of software (e.g. OpenGL). Web frameworks such as Seaside, Aida are definitely a great step in this direction. -Documentation : Both on-line and paper articles and books. Code examples are important. People new to Smalltalk should quickly find some code to copy/paste and test. To sum up, there are already different actions. Still, we need to do more. If you have ideas share them with us. Spending a little of your time in one of these actions would be beneficial to everyone. Noury

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

> Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: > intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look and > feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is > still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that > much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being > treated like a black and white movie :) But see, I'm already sold, so I just don't see the point :)... IMO, we will make the most progress in this area by concentrating our efforts on the difficult problems. It makes me happy to see people concerned with how to make an image from scratch, for example. Andres.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Valloud, Andres wrote: > > ... I remember Stephane and others commenting several times that > appearance is an issue, and that we need a nicer looking UI. Is this > really the main selling factor these days, or does that apply mostly to > students? ... > Its not just appearance Andres, it's the complete User eXperience: intuitiveness, ease of use, productivity, fun factor as well as the look and feel. A lot of progress has already been made in this area, but there is still a long way to go because most Smalltalk IDE's have not evolved that much since the 70's ... that's probably part of why Smalltalk is being treated like a black and white movie :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Thanks for the feedback Dennis. Regarding your points: Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > 2. Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. ... > Well, that's not entirely true :) The world.st site has so far had visitors from 73 countries with the top 10 coming from: Germany, United States, Uruguay, United Kingdom, France, Netherlands, Russia, Argentina, Colombia, Austria. Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > 7. ... we have to promote Smalltalk ... > Agree, Smalltalk seems to be strong in countries where it is (still) used in education. To further promote this, more educational material will be made available for others to use as they see fit. A number of lecture presentations have already been uploaded and more will follow. We plan to make them available through http://www.world.st/presentations There are also more and more screencasts published by community members. Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > 7. ... we should be more open .... > Most Smalltalk projects are already open. Commercial success stories is probably something which would be nice to make the headlines more often. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018405p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

> You are totally right ... i have the same problem when i meet > developers from other languages. It's very difficult to change the > mind of people. I have no real answer except continue do some cool > stuff and make more noise. I betcha this is a two way street. What would we see in a Smalltalker from the point of view of, say, C? Would we think we can change the Smalltalker's mind? I remember Stephane and others commenting several times that appearance is an issue, and that we need a nicer looking UI. Is this really the main selling factor these days, or does that apply mostly to students (I phrase it this way because I remember Stef making the comment specifically with respect to students)? Andres.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > … and observations …and questions … mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor Summit > > Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very > pleasant …and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture shock > :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and sending > me there. > Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, we > know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it looks like > everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few knows it still > exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! > it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk > seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show that > for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found language > and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I didn't manage to > set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. > And I've heard many interesting ideas… apparently, organizational ideas > mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just outline some > directions… Hi Dennis, thank you for you nice report ! You are totally right ... i have the same problem when i meet developers from other languages. It's very difficult to change the mind of people. I have no real answer except continue do some cool stuff and make more noise. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 29, 2010

Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Dennis Schetinin

… and observations …and questions … mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor Summit 1. Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very pleasant …and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture shock :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and sending me there. 2. Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, we know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it looks like everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few knows it still exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show that for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found language and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I didn't manage to set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. 3. And I've heard many interesting ideas… apparently, organizational ideas mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just outline some directions… 4. Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought I've missed them, but apparently we didn't do it. At least I found only this page http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/list. I didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important to look closer at the projects we did within GSoC, understand where we succeeded; where we failed; did we benefit and could we get more; make some plans for the future... etc. 5. I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very important for our small society. Of course, we can't be sure smalltalkers will be invited again next year. (One of the things I tried to understand at summit but still I don't: how does Google select mentor organizations?) But this work will be very helpful, useful, advantageous… what ever. 6. We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our projects. Since money are involved here, we have a right to. That's money from Google, but still. I think it should be a bit different from the way free projects are evolved within Smalltalk society. Since we have such opportunity we have to benefit as much as we can. 7. Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I don't want to :) but now I understand even better: we have to promote Smalltalk. I know everybody knows that, but I still want to state it once again. And promoting is not only about advertising and praising. We should be more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's extremely hard for me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) But still we have if we don't want Smalltalk to die. In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. -- Dennis Schetinin

Oct. 29, 2010

Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Dennis Schetinin

… and observations …and questions … mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor Summit 1. Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very pleasant …and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture shock :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and sending me there. 2. Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, we know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it looks like everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few knows it still exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show that for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found language and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I didn't manage to set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. 3. And I've heard many interesting ideas… apparently, organizational ideas mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just outline some directions… 4. Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought I've missed them, but apparently we didn't do it. At least I found only this page http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/list. I didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important to look closer at the projects we did within GSoC, understand where we succeeded; where we failed; did we benefit and could we get more; make some plans for the future... etc. 5. I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very important for our small society. Of course, we can't be sure smalltalkers will be invited again next year. (One of the things I tried to understand at summit but still I don't: how does Google select mentor organizations?) But this work will be very helpful, useful, advantageous… what ever. 6. We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our projects. Since money are involved here, we have a right to. That's money from Google, but still. I think it should be a bit different from the way free projects are evolved within Smalltalk society. Since we have such opportunity we have to benefit as much as we can. 7. Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I don't want to :) but now I understand even better: we have to promote Smalltalk. I know everybody knows that, but I still want to state it once again. And promoting is not only about advertising and praising. We should be more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects with other societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's extremely hard for me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) But still we have if we don't want Smalltalk to die. In general, it looks like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. -- Dennis Schetinin

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk is cool on Nabble :)

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Excellent Geert. Thank you very much for this. 2010/10/27 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > Wow, congatulations Geert for fruits of all your effort putting all > Smalltalkers together on Nabble and on http://www.world.st! > > Best regards > Janko > > On 27. 10. 2010 16:12, Geert Claes wrote: > > > > http://forum.world.st/file/n3015547/SmalltalkIsCoolOnNabble.png > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Svetovalec za informatiko > Eranova d.o.o. > Ljubljana, Slovenija > www.eranova.si > tel: 01 514 22 55 > faks: 01 514 22 56 > gsm: 031 674 565 > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Oct. 28, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] All known ESUG Slides on Slideshare

by Tudor Girba

Thanks for all the effort, Marcus! Cheers, Doru On 27 Oct 2010, at 17:56, Philippe Marschall wrote: > 2010/10/27 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: >> Hello, >> >> All known ESUG Slides (all 254) are now on SlideShare: >> >> http://www.slideshare.net/esug/slideshows >> >> or as pdf in the ESUG Archive: >> >> http://esug.org/data/ > > Thanks. > > Cheers > Philippe > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- www.tudorgirba.com "What is more important: To be happy, or to make happy?"

Oct. 28, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] All known ESUG Slides on Slideshare

by Philippe Marschall

2010/10/27 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: > Hello, > > All known ESUG Slides (all 254) are now on SlideShare: > > http://www.slideshare.net/esug/slideshows > > or as pdf in the ESUG Archive: > > http://esug.org/data/ Thanks. Cheers Philippe

Oct. 27, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk is cool on Nabble :)

by Janko Mivšek

Wow, congatulations Geert for fruits of all your effort putting all Smalltalkers together on Nabble and on http://www.world.st! Best regards Janko On 27. 10. 2010 16:12, Geert Claes wrote: > > http://forum.world.st/file/n3015547/SmalltalkIsCoolOnNabble.png -- Janko Mivšek Svetovalec za informatiko Eranova d.o.o. Ljubljana, Slovenija www.eranova.si tel: 01 514 22 55 faks: 01 514 22 56 gsm: 031 674 565

Oct. 27, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] All known ESUG Slides on Slideshare

by Reza Razavi

Hi Marcus, My IWST'2010 presentation entitled "A Method for Reflective Web Applications" figures currently in your "Missing.txt" at: http://esug.org/data/ESUG2010/ It is actually available from the workshop webpage at: <http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2010/International%20Workshop%20o…>http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2010/International%20Workshop%20o… If you prefer it in an alternative format, please let me know. Regards, Reza Razavi At 16:25 27/10/2010, Marcus Denker wrote: >Hello, > >All known ESUG Slides (all 254) are now on SlideShare: > > http://www.slideshare.net/esug/slideshows > >or as pdf in the ESUG Archive: > > http://esug.org/data/ > >Up to 2000, we do not have many slides... so if somone has slides >especially from early years, >please send them. > > Marcus > > >-- >Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de >INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 27, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] All known ESUG Slides on Slideshare

by Geert Claes

Marcus Denker-4 wrote: > > All known ESUG Slides (all 254) are now on SlideShare: > > http://www.slideshare.net/esug/slideshows > > Cool, I am in the process of adding presentations for Smalltalk OOP eductaion on SlideShare too to add them to world.st. WIP: http://www.slideshare.net/SmalltalkWorld/presentations Still trying to get some structure around the large number of slides and you have just made this even harder :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/All-known-ESUG-Slides-on-Slideshare-tp3015567p3015584… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 27, 2010

All known ESUG Slides on Slideshare

by Marcus Denker

Hello, All known ESUG Slides (all 254) are now on SlideShare: http://www.slideshare.net/esug/slideshows or as pdf in the ESUG Archive: http://esug.org/data/ Up to 2000, we do not have many slides... so if somone has slides especially from early years, please send them. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

Oct. 27, 2010

Smalltalk is cool on Nabble :)

by Geert Claes

http://forum.world.st/file/n3015547/SmalltalkIsCoolOnNabble.png -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-is-cool-on-Nabble-tp3015547p3015547.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 27, 2010

Looking for real-world Magma application

by Igor Stasenko

Hello all, sorry for cross-posting. :) I'd like to ask you, if anyone could share either an image or installation with application, which using Magma OODB. I'd like to use it & test how changing different aspects of Magma internals could affect the performance. There's many tricks, which is known by Chris how to speed it up by cleverly fine-tuning various Magma options, like read strategy etc. But what i'd like is to see, is some setup, used by people, and by taking it, see how it could make run faster, without changing an application code. I remember, someone gave a talk @ ESUG, that they were using Magma for their application, but then forced to switch to another DB layer, because they had bad performance issues. It would be good, if you could give me the code, so i can run it and see if things could be improved. Its not a problem, if code is not open-source, we could sign an NDA, if this is necessary. I need something real, simply because benchmarks sometimes not representative. :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Oct. 21, 2010

Call for Prosposals - Smalltalk Solutions Las Vegas 2011 - The Business Conference

by Georg Heeg

Smalltalk Solutions is back! The last two years have seen many new developments in Smalltalk and in the software world in general. Interest in Smalltalk is growing, and it remains the best software technology for the innovations that will shape the future. Smalltalk Solutions is a forum where Smalltalk professionals, researchers, and enthusiasts can meet and share ideas and experiences. We are currently accepting proposals for talks involving Smalltalk technology and other areas of innovation in the software industry. We're looking forward to an excellent conference, and need your participation to maintain the high technical level of the conference! The conference will take place in Las Vegas, Nevada, March 13 - 16, 2011. Presentations may be in the form of * Technical Presentations * Experience Reports * Technology Demonstrations * Panel Discussions * Half-day Tutorials * Other interesting ideas ... Proposals should be submitted by email to <mailto:STS_Speakers@stic.st> STS_Speakers(a)stic.st and should include the following information: * Name * Contact Information * Type of Presentation * Title of Presentation * Brief Abstract * Short Biography of the Presenter(s) * Desired Length (45 minutes, 1.5 hrs, half-day) * Any constraints on date/time * Any other information of importance in evaluating the proposal Submissions should be received by November 30, 2010. Note that submissions with incomplete information may be rejected - particularly if bio or abstract information is missing. Presenters will qualify for a significantly discounted registration. This year that will be $200 US, or $160 US for STIC members. For announcements of the conference see www.stic.st and http://www.smalltalksolutions.com/. Georg Heeg STIC - Smalltalk Industry Council Executive Director Phone +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712

Oct. 19, 2010

Video: Smalltalk For You

by Geert Claes

I just added James Robertson's "Smalltalk For You" Vimeo Smalltalk tutorial video's on: http://www.world.st/video

Oct. 18, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] different smalltalk groups

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Excellent. That's awesome. Thanks Geert. Mariano On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Yep, I did go through that list (and others) when I setup the Local User > Groups at http://www.world.st/usergroups and I retained those that seemed > to be still active. > > > *From: *Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> >> *Date: *October 16, 2010 12:17:15 AM GMT+02:00 >> *To: *ESUG Members <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >> *Subject: **[Esug-list] different smalltalk groups* >> >> Hi...just surfing internet I found this link: >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1288 >> >> maybe it is worth it trying to contact the groups still alive ? >> >> cheers >> >> mariano >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Oct. 18, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] different smalltalk groups

by Geert Claes

Yep, I did go through that list (and others) when I setup the Local User Groups at http://www.world.st/usergroups and I retained those that seemed to be still active. *From: *Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > *Date: *October 16, 2010 12:17:15 AM GMT+02:00 > *To: *ESUG Members <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > *Subject: **[Esug-list] different smalltalk groups* > > Hi...just surfing internet I found this link: > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1288 > > maybe it is worth it trying to contact the groups still alive ? > > cheers > > mariano > >

Oct. 18, 2010

Independent Misinterpretations Episode 1

by Stéphane Ducasse

Michael and I have launched a new podcast - "Independent Misinterpretations": http://www.jarober.com/blog/im.ssp The first episode is a conversation with Ernest Micklei about his soek.goodies.st site. MP3 Edition: http://www.jarober.com/blog/blogView?entry=3464803015 AAC Edition: http://www.jarober.com/blog/blogView?entry=3464803797 If you follow either link, you can also get the podcast in ogg vorbis format. To subscribe: MP3 - http://www.jarober.com/rss/blog_podcast.xml AAC - http://www.jarober.com/rss/blog_podcastAAC.xml Join us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_154069891295159 and vote us up on Podcast Alley - http://www.podcastalley.com/podcast_details.php?pod_id=105737 James Robertson http://www.jarober.com jarober(a)gmail.com

Oct. 18, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] different smalltalk groups

by Geert Claes

Yep, I did go through that list (and others) when I setup the Local User Groups at http://www.world.st/usergroups and I retained those that seemed to be still active. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/different-smalltalk-groups-tp2997792p2999738.html Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 18, 2010

James Robertson is looking for a job

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi guys James did an excellent job over the year to push smalltalk. He is now looking for a job and we are sure that he will find one. http://www.jarober.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=Need_a_Sm… Thanks james for your podcasts promoting Smalltalk. Stef

Oct. 17, 2010

different smalltalk groups

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi...just surfing internet I found this link: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1288 maybe it is worth it trying to contact the groups still alive ? cheers mariano

Oct. 15, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Object Oriented Implementation of Numerical Methods" under the MIT license

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/14/2010 10:02 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > I want to thanks didier for releasing the code of his book under MIT. That's great, thanks! Paolo

Oct. 14, 2010