October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Is he kidding?

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/31/2010 11:32 PM, Dan Ingalls wrote: > http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/Dan/OMeta-Smalltalk-Demo.x… Doesn't load in Firefox 3.6 (pistons spin forever), crashes the browser in Epiphany (WebKit-based). :( Paolo

Oct. 31, 2010

Is he kidding?

by Dan Ingalls

Hi again - I will stop polluting this otherwise sane list, but I can't resist one more thought... You know I never left Smalltalk; I'm just using another language right now ;-). One of the early thoughts I had when working on the Lively Kernel was to put a Smalltalk "skin" on top of it, and I'd have a Lively Smalltalk. I was going to release it to SqueakLand as an April Fool's prank, but the day came and went; then a year came and went, and so it goes... Meanwhile, Alex Warth sketched a Smalltalk evaluator in OMeta and put it up on his Tin Lizzie site. Anticipating various fun language experiments, we then integrated OMeta (as JavaScript) with the Lively Kernel, and Robert Krahn put together a Lively version of Alex's experiment. You might find it intriguing... http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/Dan/OMeta-Smalltalk-Demo.x… This should work on Safari, Chrome, Firefox and Opera, with iPad and IE9 working RSN. You should be able to select expressions and evaluate them with cmd-p or something similar (different in different browsers and platforms). If all else fails, you should be able to bring up a menu with cmd-click, and select Text-functions/print-it. Don't forget to scroll the Smalltalk workspace up -- the best examples are out of view. So, is this a joke? Modern JavaScripts runs at a speed comparable to Squeak The graphics are resolution-independent and anti-aliased It runs in almost every browser You don't need to install it to run You can save your work on a web page and share it that way too Of course it's only a two-day hack, but what if someone actually got serious about it? And what about the synergy with Gilad's interest in compiling Newspeak to JS? For me, I think we could have a lot of fun in the next year. If this tickles your fancy, hop on the Lively Kernel mail list and we'll try to give you some support. The documentation is sparse but the people are friendly. All the best - Dan

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by Dan Ingalls

Hi Geert - <several snips> >The "download a new environment" may not mean to a local machine, because I >would like to add that we also expect to pick it up anywhere and probably >also on any device! I agree. We are still learning what is the sweet spot in the mobile/cloud universe, and how this relates to earlier client/server experience. - Dan

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] How to query Amazon information via a web service?

by Stéphane Ducasse

Thanks! Stef On Oct 31, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Mirko Kiefer wrote: > Stephane, > I haven't looked at the cloudfork code in detail but I'm sure you can reuse the generic part of setting up the communication. > All Amazon Web Services communicate in the same way - its basically about signing your requests with an HMAC signature using your secret access-token. > Each API then defines certain query parameters. To do your ISBN queries you can have a look here: > http://docs.amazonwebservices.com/AWSECommerceService/latest/DG/index.html?… > > You will just need to supply the parameters IdType=ISBN and ItemId for the actual ISBN. > Depending of the amount or kind of information you want to get you can specifiy certain "ResponseGroups" in the request e.g. "Large" or "Medium". > > Hope that helps. > > Mirko > > > On 10/31/10 6:27 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> Thanks mirko >> I will read that ;) >> Like that I can learn something. Did you check cloudfork? do you know if there are some services communication I could reuse? >> >> Stef >> >> On Oct 31, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Mirko Kiefer wrote: >> >>> Hi Stephane, >>> >>> I wrote a simple client for the Amazon Web Services in Node.js that allows you to do this kind of queries. >>> The implementation is quite straightforward - porting it to Smalltalk shouldn't be much work. >>> http://github.com/mirkok/Node-AWS >>> >>> Mirko >>> >>> On 10/31/10 5:51 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>>> Hi guys >>>> >>>> I would like to get book information from an ISBN and I would like to query amazon. >>>> Does any of you an experience with that and some pointers? >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] How to query Amazon information via a web service?

by Stéphane Ducasse

Thanks! I will have a look now. On Oct 31, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Georg Heeg wrote: > Stef, > > One of the initial seaBreeze examples we showed at ESUg in Amsterdam. The > demo still is part of seaBreeze one-click image. Just download seaBreeze > from seaBreeze.heeg.de and have a look. > > Georg > > Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812 > Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712 > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org > [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Stéphane Ducasse > Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Oktober 2010 17:52 > An: ESUG Mailing list > Betreff: [Esug-list] How to query Amazon information via a web service? > > Hi guys > > I would like to get book information from an ISBN and I would like to query > amazon. > Does any of you an experience with that and some pointers? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] How to query Amazon information via a web service?

by Mirko Kiefer

Stephane, I haven't looked at the cloudfork code in detail but I'm sure you can reuse the generic part of setting up the communication. All Amazon Web Services communicate in the same way - its basically about signing your requests with an HMAC signature using your secret access-token. Each API then defines certain query parameters. To do your ISBN queries you can have a look here: http://docs.amazonwebservices.com/AWSECommerceService/latest/DG/index.html?… You will just need to supply the parameters IdType=ISBN and ItemId for the actual ISBN. Depending of the amount or kind of information you want to get you can specifiy certain "ResponseGroups" in the request e.g. "Large" or "Medium". Hope that helps. Mirko On 10/31/10 6:27 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks mirko > I will read that ;) > Like that I can learn something. Did you check cloudfork? do you know if there are some services communication I could reuse? > > Stef > > On Oct 31, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Mirko Kiefer wrote: > >> Hi Stephane, >> >> I wrote a simple client for the Amazon Web Services in Node.js that allows you to do this kind of queries. >> The implementation is quite straightforward - porting it to Smalltalk shouldn't be much work. >> http://github.com/mirkok/Node-AWS >> >> Mirko >> >> On 10/31/10 5:51 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> Hi guys >>> >>> I would like to get book information from an ISBN and I would like to query amazon. >>> Does any of you an experience with that and some pointers? >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] How to query Amazon information via a web service?

by Georg Heeg

Stef, One of the initial seaBreeze examples we showed at ESUg in Amsterdam. The demo still is part of seaBreeze one-click image. Just download seaBreeze from seaBreeze.heeg.de and have a look. Georg Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812 Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Stéphane Ducasse Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Oktober 2010 17:52 An: ESUG Mailing list Betreff: [Esug-list] How to query Amazon information via a web service? Hi guys I would like to get book information from an ISBN and I would like to query amazon. Does any of you an experience with that and some pointers? Stef _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 31, 2010

How to query Amazon information via a web service?

by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi guys I would like to get book information from an ISBN and I would like to query amazon. Does any of you an experience with that and some pointers? Stef

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Carlos Crosetti

I agree with Richard.. I am familiar with VisualWorks and Digitalk's VSE. I first met Squeak back in 2007, then Pharo, I llike both. To make a progress in teaching myself, I invested too much time. Got positively caught with the Seaside one-click experience image and I am stick for the moment. Seems that the Pharo-Squeak communities are not challenged to build something like VW´s UI Builder. Having such a feature will help Smalltalk appeal to those developers that capture small-medium sized client-server projects on their own (around 100 days of effort) that are not interesting targets to the the large consultancy businesses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Sargent" <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> To: <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code > I'll second Gilad's thoughts. > > I am familiar with VisualWorks and VA, as well as no longer existent > dialects like Digitalk's. However, the several times I have tried to "get > into Squeak", I've landed in a UI that doesn't work like those I am > familiar > with, so it seems much more difficult to learn "the Squeak way". The only > tutorial was about basic Smalltalk syntax and offered no guidance for > Squeak. Perhaps there are some "getting started with Squeak" guides, but > Squeak itself doesn't lead you to them. > > We can get any number of people to try a given Smalltalk implementation, > but > once they get there, we need to ensure they can get around in it (if they > already think Smalltalk) and can learn how the Smalltalk way differs from > what they are used to otherwise. > > > Like many people, once I account for sleep, family life, and work, there > isn't a lot of time left for struggling to learn something new, no matter > how popular or interesting it seems to be. We need to reduce the effort to > get over the first hurdles. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org > [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Gilad Bracha > Sent: October-30-10 7:09 PM > To: Geert Claes > Cc: esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code > > Hi Geert, Rob and others, > > On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > >> >> We do have Newspeak listed on http://www.world.st/implementations so > everyone >> should make some time :) > > Thanks for that and for the good intentions! > > If I may, I'll make one more observation. This thread (and similar ones, > oft repeated among Smalltalkers) bemoans the fact that others do not see > the beauty of Smalltalk. What I liked about this thread was that > Smalltalkers were engaged in serious self examination. There seemed to be > a > realization that some things need real changes. > > Perhaps as part of this self examination, one can see how hard it is to > get > out of one's comfort zone. The effort of engaging with and learning > something different is more than most people can find the time and energy > for - even when the differences are relatively modest, as in the case of > Newspeak. > Some of the reasons some of you cannot get around to really getting > involved > with Newspeak are quite analogous to the reasons why your Pythonista or > Java > (or whatever) colleagues cannot get serious about Smalltalk. > > I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. It's > just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses and work hard > at > fixing them, and hope that some people will find it worthwhile to become > truly involved. > > > Cheers, Gilad > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Serge Stinckwich

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: > I'll second Gilad's thoughts. > > I am familiar with VisualWorks and VA, as well as no longer existent > dialects like Digitalk's. However, the several times I have tried to "get > into Squeak", I've landed in a UI that doesn't work like those I am familiar > with, so it seems much more difficult to learn "the Squeak way". The only > tutorial was about basic Smalltalk syntax and offered no guidance for > Squeak. Perhaps there are some "getting started with Squeak" guides, but > Squeak itself doesn't lead you to them. There is the Squeak by Example book : http://www.squeakbyexample.org/ Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Richard Sargent

I'll second Gilad's thoughts. I am familiar with VisualWorks and VA, as well as no longer existent dialects like Digitalk's. However, the several times I have tried to "get into Squeak", I've landed in a UI that doesn't work like those I am familiar with, so it seems much more difficult to learn "the Squeak way". The only tutorial was about basic Smalltalk syntax and offered no guidance for Squeak. Perhaps there are some "getting started with Squeak" guides, but Squeak itself doesn't lead you to them. We can get any number of people to try a given Smalltalk implementation, but once they get there, we need to ensure they can get around in it (if they already think Smalltalk) and can learn how the Smalltalk way differs from what they are used to otherwise. Like many people, once I account for sleep, family life, and work, there isn't a lot of time left for struggling to learn something new, no matter how popular or interesting it seems to be. We need to reduce the effort to get over the first hurdles. -----Original Message----- From: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Gilad Bracha Sent: October-30-10 7:09 PM To: Geert Claes Cc: esug-list(a)lists.esug.org Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code Hi Geert, Rob and others, On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > > We do have Newspeak listed on http://www.world.st/implementations so everyone > should make some time :) Thanks for that and for the good intentions! If I may, I'll make one more observation. This thread (and similar ones, oft repeated among Smalltalkers) bemoans the fact that others do not see the beauty of Smalltalk. What I liked about this thread was that Smalltalkers were engaged in serious self examination. There seemed to be a realization that some things need real changes. Perhaps as part of this self examination, one can see how hard it is to get out of one's comfort zone. The effort of engaging with and learning something different is more than most people can find the time and energy for - even when the differences are relatively modest, as in the case of Newspeak. Some of the reasons some of you cannot get around to really getting involved with Newspeak are quite analogous to the reasons why your Pythonista or Java (or whatever) colleagues cannot get serious about Smalltalk. I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. It's just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses and work hard at fixing them, and hope that some people will find it worthwhile to become truly involved. Cheers, Gilad _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by laurent laffont

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > > Dan Ingalls wrote: > > > > ... As technologists, we repeatedly underestimate the importance of > > marketing and, even when we know we need to promote our systems, we fail > > because the skills of marketing are not simply technical skills. > > > > Marketing should not be something which is done by non-technologists only, > it is about keeping the user as the central focus of "all" activities. As > you said, its about who the users are, and also about what their > expectations are and how to best address these. > > Hi, I strongly agree on this. IMHO community projects need good leaders to be successful, people who cares about attracting people, create fun and visibility, discuss and set orientations, establish effective processes to lower waste of time and allow newbies to easily submit a one line code patch and give immediate feedback to them. So it means that a leader's work is actually more reading and answering emails, write documentation, retrospectives and visions than writing code. Today social network usage is strong, people search for friends and eventually build things together for fun and status, write blogs, create beautiful web sites, ... Agile movement shows how vital communication and fun are. Maybe people/community is the most important thing on these projects. Good design / technical aspect seems only the second most important thing :) Cheers, Laurent Laffont Pharo Smalltalk Screencasts: http://www.pharocasts.com/ Blog: http://magaloma.blogspot.com/

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by Geert Claes

Dan Ingalls wrote: > > ... As technologists, we repeatedly underestimate the importance of > marketing and, even when we know we need to promote our systems, we fail > because the skills of marketing are not simply technical skills. > Marketing should not be something which is done by non-technologists only, it is about keeping the user as the central focus of "all" activities. As you said, its about who the users are, and also about what their expectations are and how to best address these. Dan Ingalls wrote: > > ... Now it is mostly running in "the" browser, and communicating over the > web.... > Agree! Dan Ingalls wrote: > > ...Smalltalk has always suffered from two main barriers: installation and > integration. Once you have it installed, and if you don't need to access > anything outside, it is unmatched in its ability to make > simple things simply, and to achieve complex goals as well... > I think Gilad was onto something with his "Objects as Software Services" talk at OOPSLA 2005 about not just the installation, but also the continuos upgrade process. For systems running in the cloud it may be a different story again? Dan Ingalls wrote: > > In the world of today, people expect any new thing of interest to spring > to life in their browser. > They expect it to look attractive, cool, powerful; anything but geeky... > Agree again. Dan Ingalls wrote: > > We expect it to be immediately useful. For a computer language, this > means you can immediately try out some expressions and make something > happen. We want this. We are busy, and we don't have time to > download a new environment, figure out a new browser, learn a new graphics > system, right? > We expect it to be incremental - do some work, save it, pick it up later - > we expect the comforts of Smalltalk-style development.... > The "download a new environment" may not mean to a local machine, because I would like to add that we also expect to pick it up anywhere and probably also on any device! -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by Dan Ingalls

Hi Andres - >Dan, how would you reconcile the need for immediate usefulness and the assumption that "we are busy, and we don't have time to download a new environment, figure out a new browser, learn a new graphics system", with Alan's assertion that technology these days is flawed because it requires little effort? To me it's a question of curriculum. You start with a few interesting things on the table and go from there. I don't think Alan has any problem with this. You need to engage your audience one way or another. Hopefully the initial set is somehow provocative. >================ >A twentieth century problem is that technology has become too "easy". When it was hard to do anything whether good or bad, enough time was taken so that the result was usually good. Now we can make things almost trivially, especially in software, but most of the designs are trivial as well. This is inverse vandalism: the making of things because you can. Couple this to even less sophisticated buyers and you have generated an exploitation marketplace similar to that set up for teenagers. A counter to this is to generate enormous dissatisfaction with one's designs using the entire history of human art as a standard and goal. Then the trick is to decouple the dissatisfaction from self worth--otherwise it is either too depressing or one stops too soon with trivial results. >================ > >In this context, what does it mean to be useful if it requires no effort? I'm not saying no effort to build significant stuff. But no effort to engage -- that's good curriculum / good marketing. > Is this an issue of being able to quickly differentiate ourselves from others because, absent a flashy presentation, we feel we (and our work) are indistinguishable from others (and their work)? Not that we have control over that issue, but I think it would be important to acknowledge that motivation explicitly if it is really there. No, it's more about not differentiating ourselves negatively -- not adding barriers. Show what you are at first click, and what you can do at second click. I'm not saying I've succeeded here, but I know it matters. - D

Oct. 31, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by Andres Valloud

Dan, how would you reconcile the need for immediate usefulness and the assumption that "we are busy, and we don't have time to download a new environment, figure out a new browser, learn a new graphics system", with Alan's assertion that technology these days is flawed because it requires little effort? ================ A twentieth century problem is that technology has become too "easy". When it was hard to do anything whether good or bad, enough time was taken so that the result was usually good. Now we can make things almost trivially, especially in software, but most of the designs are trivial as well. This is inverse vandalism: the making of things because you can. Couple this to even less sophisticated buyers and you have generated an exploitation marketplace similar to that set up for teenagers. A counter to this is to generate enormous dissatisfaction with one's designs using the entire history of human art as a standard and goal. Then the trick is to decouple the dissatisfaction from self worth--otherwise it is either too depressing or one stops too soon with trivial results. ================ In this context, what does it mean to be useful if it requires no effort? Is this an issue of being able to quickly differentiate ourselves from others because, absent a flashy presentation, we feel we (and our work) are indistinguishable from others (and their work)? Not that we have control over that issue, but I think it would be important to acknowledge that motivation explicitly if it is really there. On 10/30/2010 1:48 PM, Dan Ingalls wrote: > Good People - > > Adoption of a language, like any other adoption, is generally a function > of the needs and wants of the audience, and the strengths and weaknesses > of the substance being promoted. For better or worse, this function can > be significantly biased at the outset by marketing. As technologists, we > repeatedly underestimate the importance of marketing and, even when we > know we need to promote our systems, we fail because the skills of > marketing are not simply technical skills. > > Who are our users? > We all have our own answer for this. I'll answer for myself so that I > can be articulate -- these are the users I would like to attract, or who > I feel would find our system valuable if they used it... > Kids at play - ie people 8-16 who are doing fun things > Kids at work - ie students 8-20 who are doing more serious things like > math (including computer science), physics, graphics, music, etc > Computer professionals at play - most of us > Computer professionals at work - most of us > > About the computing context > The computing context has changed a lot over the years. It used to be > personal computers running Mac, Windows or Unix, and it used to be > simple functions like text editing and experiments with media. Now it is > mostly running in "the" browser, and communicating over the web. A > couple of things have remained key values, though: The ability to create > new content simply and directly, and the ability to pull together > existing content flexibly. By "content" I mean both media and functions > (services). The ability to assemble existing content has been the > greatest strength and weakness of Smalltalk over the years. For internal > content, Smalltalk is unmatched in its ability to make every extension, > whether music, graphics, or a financial model, as natural as a built-in > language feature. For external content, however, Smalltalk has > historically faltered at the edges of its monolithic system. > > What do the users need and want? > The ability to create new content simply and directly, > the ability to assemble existing content flexibly, and > the ability to share any results easily. > > What is important for marketing > An old quote of Alan's is still relevant here: "Simple things should be > simple, and complex things should be possible." Smalltalk has always > suffered from two main barriers: installation and integration. Once you > have it installed, and if you don't need to access anything outside, it > is unmatched in its ability to make simple things simply, and to achieve > complex goals as well. Within its self-contained context, its image > model is perfect for saving, restoring, and sharing work between > sessions, between machines, and between users. > > In the world of today, people expect any new thing of interest to spring > to life in their browser. > They expect it to look attractive, cool, powerful; anything but geeky... > http://emberapp.com/ > http://www.thecssawards.com/ > http://cssmania.com/galleries/ > You want this, too, right? So we can use "we" in place of "they". > We expect it to be immediately useful. For a computer language, this > means you can immediately try out some expressions and make something > happen. We want this. We are busy, and we don't have time to download a > new environment, figure out a new browser, learn a new graphics system, > right? > We expect it to be incremental - do some work, save it, pick it up later > - we expect the comforts of Smalltalk-style development. > We expect it to be sharable - do something and send it to someone. It's > what we do with email, photos and videos. We probably want it to be > self-sharing, how about your workspace in your facebook page, and tweets > about each cool new thing. > > These are the things that Gilad and I are grappling with, and I think > everyone on this list probably thinks the same way from time to time. > Gilad is trying to fix some of the modularity problems in Smalltalk and > exploit some of its greatest strengths, while figuring out how to host > it in today's (or tomorrow's) browsers. And I've been playing around > with what's possible using JavaScript directly, but with some Smalltalk > comforts like a nice browser, work in a live editable environment, and > save your project state as a web page. > > To return to Gilad's post, > [my interpretation: We don't take the time and effort to explore new > systems, and we don't take the time and effort to make our own systems > easy for others to explore] >> I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. >> It's just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses and >> work hard at fixing them, and hope that some people will find it >> worthwhile to become truly involved. > > I feel the same way. But if you feel the same way from time to time, > perhaps you should start a movement to do something similar, or see how > you could contribute to NewSpeak or the Lively Kernel; not to abandon > Smalltalk but to experiment with how to carry *its goals* and *your > desires* forward. > > Nothing is holding us back > > - D > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Growing a community

by Dan Ingalls

Good People - Adoption of a language, like any other adoption, is generally a function of the needs and wants of the audience, and the strengths and weaknesses of the substance being promoted. For better or worse, this function can be significantly biased at the outset by marketing. As technologists, we repeatedly underestimate the importance of marketing and, even when we know we need to promote our systems, we fail because the skills of marketing are not simply technical skills. Who are our users? We all have our own answer for this. I'll answer for myself so that I can be articulate -- these are the users I would like to attract, or who I feel would find our system valuable if they used it... Kids at play - ie people 8-16 who are doing fun things Kids at work - ie students 8-20 who are doing more serious things like math (including computer science), physics, graphics, music, etc Computer professionals at play - most of us Computer professionals at work - most of us About the computing context The computing context has changed a lot over the years. It used to be personal computers running Mac, Windows or Unix, and it used to be simple functions like text editing and experiments with media. Now it is mostly running in "the" browser, and communicating over the web. A couple of things have remained key values, though: The ability to create new content simply and directly, and the ability to pull together existing content flexibly. By "content" I mean both media and functions (services). The ability to assemble existing content has been the greatest strength and weakness of Smalltalk over the years. For internal content, Smalltalk is unmatched in its ability to make every extension, whether music, graphics, or a financial model, as natural as a built-in language feature. For external content, however, Smalltalk has historically faltered at the edges of its monolithic system. What do the users need and want? The ability to create new content simply and directly, the ability to assemble existing content flexibly, and the ability to share any results easily. What is important for marketing An old quote of Alan's is still relevant here: "Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." Smalltalk has always suffered from two main barriers: installation and integration. Once you have it installed, and if you don't need to access anything outside, it is unmatched in its ability to make simple things simply, and to achieve complex goals as well. Within its self-contained context, its image model is perfect for saving, restoring, and sharing work between sessions, between machines, and between users. In the world of today, people expect any new thing of interest to spring to life in their browser. They expect it to look attractive, cool, powerful; anything but geeky... <http://emberapp.com/>http://emberapp.com/ <http://www.thecssawards.com/> http://www.thecssawards.com/ <http://cssmania.com/galleries/>http://cssmania.com/galleries/ You want this, too, right? So we can use "we" in place of "they". We expect it to be immediately useful. For a computer language, this means you can immediately try out some expressions and make something happen. We want this. We are busy, and we don't have time to download a new environment, figure out a new browser, learn a new graphics system, right? We expect it to be incremental - do some work, save it, pick it up later - we expect the comforts of Smalltalk-style development. We expect it to be sharable - do something and send it to someone. It's what we do with email, photos and videos. We probably want it to be self-sharing, how about your workspace in your facebook page, and tweets about each cool new thing. These are the things that Gilad and I are grappling with, and I think everyone on this list probably thinks the same way from time to time. Gilad is trying to fix some of the modularity problems in Smalltalk and exploit some of its greatest strengths, while figuring out how to host it in today's (or tomorrow's) browsers. And I've been playing around with what's possible using JavaScript directly, but with some Smalltalk comforts like a nice browser, work in a live editable environment, and save your project state as a web page. To return to Gilad's post, [my interpretation: We don't take the time and effort to explore new systems, and we don't take the time and effort to make our own systems easy for others to explore] >I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. >It's just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses and >work hard at fixing them, and hope that some people will find it >worthwhile to become truly involved. I feel the same way. But if you feel the same way from time to time, perhaps you should start a movement to do something similar, or see how you could contribute to NewSpeak or the Lively Kernel; not to abandon Smalltalk but to experiment with how to carry *its goals* and *your desires* forward. Nothing is holding us back - D

Oct. 30, 2010

Growing a community

by Dan Ingalls

Hi Gilad and all - This is a worthwhile topic, one to which I intend to respond, but it will take some time. Let's start by renaming the thread... > If I may, I'll make one more observation. This thread (and similar ones, oft repeated among Smalltalkers) bemoans the fact that others do not see the beauty of Smalltalk. What I liked about this thread was that Smalltalkers were engaged in serious self examination. There seemed to be a realization that some things need real changes. > >Perhaps as part of this self examination, one can see how hard it is to get out of one's comfort zone. The effort of engaging with and learning something different is more than most people can find the time and energy for - even when the differences are relatively modest, as in the case of Newspeak. >Some of the reasons some of you cannot get around to really getting involved with Newspeak are quite analogous to the reasons why your Pythonista or Java (or whatever) colleagues cannot get serious about Smalltalk. > >I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. It's just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses and work hard at fixing them, and hope that some people will find it worthwhile to become truly involved.

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Gilad Bracha

Hi Geert, Rob and others, On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > > We do have Newspeak listed on http://www.world.st/implementations so everyone > should make some time :) Thanks for that and for the good intentions! If I may, I'll make one more observation. This thread (and similar ones, oft repeated among Smalltalkers) bemoans the fact that others do not see the beauty of Smalltalk. What I liked about this thread was that Smalltalkers were engaged in serious self examination. There seemed to be a realization that some things need real changes. Perhaps as part of this self examination, one can see how hard it is to get out of one's comfort zone. The effort of engaging with and learning something different is more than most people can find the time and energy for - even when the differences are relatively modest, as in the case of Newspeak. Some of the reasons some of you cannot get around to really getting involved with Newspeak are quite analogous to the reasons why your Pythonista or Java (or whatever) colleagues cannot get serious about Smalltalk. I am well aware that this is not a terribly actionable observation. It's just the way it is. What one can do is identify weaknesses and work hard at fixing them, and hope that some people will find it worthwhile to become truly involved. Cheers, Gilad

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

We do have Newspeak listed on http://www.world.st/implementations so everyone should make some time :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Rob Vens

Gilad, I do not think you are "doing wrong" as you formulated it. In a way we Smalltalkers are maybe a bit conservative, but speaking for myself I have always found Newspeak extremely enticing. It was, as I am sure is the case for many more Smalltalkers (and my guess is many more than you suspect based on your post), always on my "should-look-into-it" list, but I just did not find (and make ;-)) the time to actually put some effort into it. I think it is worthwhile to try to make others than yourself make more noise about it, not only within the Smalltalk community. It may be a subject for another thread but I would like to put out a call among the members of this mailing list, not per-se to actually and structurally participate in the Newspeak effort, but at least to let others and Gilad know that Newspeak is on your radar and that Gilad will not need to say that "very few Smalltalkers are interested in Newspeak". I know I am! 2010/10/30 Gilad Bracha <gilad(a)bracha.org> > Andres, > > On Oct 30, 2010, at 12:35 AM, Andres Valloud wrote: > > > I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I > have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me from > having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist? > > In Newspeak, the Hopscotch browser maintains a history of everywhere you've > been, which is always one click away - which means any class, object, > workspace etc. is at most two clicks away at all times. I'm not sure if this > is what you meant > > While I'm on the topic of Newspeak, here are some observations that are > perhaps relevant to this thread. Be aware that I am engaged in shameless > self promotion. > > a. Newspeak has a syntax. So: > > b You can edit Newspeak in whatever editor you want. The IDE runs in an > image in the classic Smalltalk way, but also saves each class you modify in > a file automatically. > c. The IDE has integrated support for source control. Currently this uses a > svn-Monticello integration, but the next phase will phase out Monticello and > work directly with mercurial, git or svn. > > Furthermore > > e. Newspeak introduced the Alien FFI, which allows us to use the rest of > the world's software. Case in point: we recently needed to talk to some > software over https. Squeak does not support this natively, and requires a > plugin, which is by its own documentation unstable. We just call out to > libCurl. > > f. Using said aliens, we support a portable native GUI. Looks great on a > modern Windows machine. We could support mac as well, if we had more > resources. But, as Andres implies, this is fighting the last war. Hence: > > g. We are getting close to running the exact same GUI in a browser. > > > h. As far as deployment goes, we can deploy apps independent of the IDE - > either via the browser or as executables (on Windows) or, in principle, > anything else. That is because the language actually supports modularity. > > Some of these features need more work to reach full maturity. This could > happen sooner if we got more volunteers. While the Smalltalk community might > be a good source of such volunteers, I recognize it isn't happening. > > So, what am I doing wrong? Newspeak is open source, it runs Squeak > Smalltalk as well as Newspeak, and provides a very Smalltalk-like experience > for those who want it, while addressing many of the issues that have been > brought up in this thread. Even so, very few Smalltalkers are interested in > working with Newspeak. > >

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

Gilad, On 10/30/2010 2:17 AM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > In Newspeak, the Hopscotch browser maintains a history of everywhere > you've been, which is always one click away - which means any class, > object, workspace etc. is at most two clicks away at all times. I'm > not sure if this is what you meant I mean more like seeing an actual graph with nodes so I can see the shape of the traversal. I don't know if this would help in practice, but I'd like to try it. Or has this approach been tried before and I just missed it? Andres.

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/30/2010 11:17 AM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > So, what am I doing wrong? Newspeak is open source, it runs Squeak > Smalltalk as well as Newspeak, and provides a very Smalltalk-like > experience for those who want it, while addressing many of the issues > that have been brought up in this thread. Even so, very few > Smalltalkers are interested in working with Newspeak. I've honestly been tempted many times to see what it means to port GNU Smalltalk to Newspeak the same way Squeak runs on top of it. Time is unfortunately always a problem. Paolo

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Gilad Bracha

Andres, On Oct 30, 2010, at 12:35 AM, Andres Valloud wrote: > I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist? In Newspeak, the Hopscotch browser maintains a history of everywhere you've been, which is always one click away - which means any class, object, workspace etc. is at most two clicks away at all times. I'm not sure if this is what you meant While I'm on the topic of Newspeak, here are some observations that are perhaps relevant to this thread. Be aware that I am engaged in shameless self promotion. a. Newspeak has a syntax. So: b You can edit Newspeak in whatever editor you want. The IDE runs in an image in the classic Smalltalk way, but also saves each class you modify in a file automatically. c. The IDE has integrated support for source control. Currently this uses a svn-Monticello integration, but the next phase will phase out Monticello and work directly with mercurial, git or svn. Furthermore e. Newspeak introduced the Alien FFI, which allows us to use the rest of the world's software. Case in point: we recently needed to talk to some software over https. Squeak does not support this natively, and requires a plugin, which is by its own documentation unstable. We just call out to libCurl. f. Using said aliens, we support a portable native GUI. Looks great on a modern Windows machine. We could support mac as well, if we had more resources. But, as Andres implies, this is fighting the last war. Hence: g. We are getting close to running the exact same GUI in a browser. h. As far as deployment goes, we can deploy apps independent of the IDE - either via the browser or as executables (on Windows) or, in principle, anything else. That is because the language actually supports modularity. Some of these features need more work to reach full maturity. This could happen sooner if we got more volunteers. While the Smalltalk community might be a good source of such volunteers, I recognize it isn't happening. So, what am I doing wrong? Newspeak is open source, it runs Squeak Smalltalk as well as Newspeak, and provides a very Smalltalk-like experience for those who want it, while addressing many of the issues that have been brought up in this thread. Even so, very few Smalltalkers are interested in working with Newspeak. > > On 10/30/2010 12:29 AM, Marten Feldtmann wrote: >> James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all >> these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles >> and be happy with it. >> >> * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains >> about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be >> accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the >> area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement >> in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps >> like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) >> systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives >> me mad. >> >> * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems >> like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. >> Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far >> superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all >> Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so >> attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one >> Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. >> >> * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, >> missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. >> The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not >> understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. >> >> * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, >> multithreading area ... >> >> * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... >> >> * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out >> of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. >> >> * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due >> to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use >> already available software components. >> >> Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they >> use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are >> available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime >> license problems). >> >> Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: >>> I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the >>> Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. >>> However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a >>> personal use standpoint cares. So >>> >>> -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think >>> -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think >>> >>> I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - >>> and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. >>> Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require >>> people to get past: >>> >>> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor >>> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools >>> >>> the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I >>> recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, >>> the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > Cheers, Gilad

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Peter Hugosson-Miller

That sounds exactly like the TrailBlazer browser in VisualAge. -- Best regards, Peter Hugosson-Miller On Sat, October 30, 2010 09:35, Andres Valloud wrote: > I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I > have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me > from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist?

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Andres Valloud

I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist? On 10/30/2010 12:29 AM, Marten Feldtmann wrote: > James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all > these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles > and be happy with it. > > * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains > about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be > accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the > area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement > in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps > like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) > systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives > me mad. > > * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems > like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. > Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far > superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all > Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so > attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one > Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. > > * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, > missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. > The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not > understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. > > * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, > multithreading area ... > > * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... > > * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out > of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. > > * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due > to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use > already available software components. > > Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they > use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are > available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime > license problems). > > Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: >> I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the >> Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. >> However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a >> personal use standpoint cares. So >> >> -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think >> -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think >> >> I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - >> and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. >> Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require >> people to get past: >> >> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor >> -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools >> >> the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I >> recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, >> the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Marten Feldtmann

James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles and be happy with it. * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives me mad. * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, multithreading area ... * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use already available software components. Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime license problems). Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: > I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So > > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think > > I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require people to get past: > > -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor > -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > > the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Georg Heeg wrote: > > Actually SeaBreeze does exactly what you propose here. For details see > seabreeze.heeg.de. It is a UI Editor and framework on top of Seaside. > I just find the SeaBreeze Cincom software license agreement is just a bit of an awkward hurdle although I do like some concepts SeaBreeze and WebVelocity are addressing. The seabreeze.heeg.de website also really needs an up-to-date look and feel. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > It's definitely a step towards that, though. Does your experience with > CVST suggest that it's better to do both steps at the same time? Fair enough, but I would hope that whatever solution is chosen, it is open towards eventually being able to support cross-dialect projects. > I would be worried that including in an "initial battle plan" an > editor-friendly syntax would lead to endless discussions and no code > produced. Yes, but I'm more worried about "real" vs "fake" integration, than I am about particulars of a syntax. With fake integration all you'll get with git is push, pull and commit, leaving all the rest of the capabilities behind. That will not make us a good team player.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Sean P. DeNigris

SergeStinckwich wrote: > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ? ;-) > If I had VI key bindings when I started using Squeak, it would have eased my adoption greatly - it was really hard for me to give up the power and efficiency of doing everything without taking my fingers off the keyboard. One of the answers I got was that because good Smalltalk methods are short, you don't need them - ha ha. So we have our own religion, too :) In actuality, this just makes the dramatic productivity increase the key bindings offer less. But here's the joke - the SVI project provides VI bindings. Here's another, Lukas showed a git interface at ESUG. A third? The GTK bindings mentioned were originally in Squeak, but there was no interest (per steph). To me, the primary issue is an inability to use and improve the things that we *already* have because: * I can't understand the intention of code - no tests and documentation * I don't know they exist - no central place/process which includes the above It seems the pattern is: 1. work on something awesome 2. let it disappear into squeaksource, because no one can find it, or figure out how to use it 3. 5 years later, have someone else do the same awesome thing from scratch 4. repeat step 2 my 2c Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 05:58 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > "Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: >> Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside >> Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the >> integration with the tool is kind of fake. > > Sure, but that just helps you to do part of a project in smalltalk, > it doesn't help much with attracting new people to Smalltalk. It's definitely a step towards that, though. Does your experience with CVST suggest that it's better to do both steps at the same time? I would be worried that including in an "initial battle plan" an editor-friendly syntax would lead to endless discussions and no code produced. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside > Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the > integration with the tool is kind of fake. Sure, but that just helps you to do part of a project in smalltalk, it doesn't help much with attracting new people to Smalltalk.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 05:34 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: > On 29.10.2010, at 16:40, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > >> Otherwise people will see right away that we're just faking the >> integration. So in VW I wouldn't try to swap git in as a just a >> different "database back end" behind Store. I think it needs to be >> full on file based VC integration (ala CVST or whatever) that can >> run side by side with Store if you wanted. > > Indeed. It might even be necessary to support out-of-the-image > development. That can come later. Chunk format is actually passable if you only have to do that every once in a while (because you use the IDE). Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the integration with the tool is kind of fake. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Bert Freudenberg

On 29.10.2010, at 16:40, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > Another point I'd like to emphasize, if we want to attract people from other languages claiming integration with these VCS, it's not enough to merely use them as just a back-end store for our source. We have to step outside of our comfort zone and adopt the development model that comes with it (and it might actually do us good, this new crop of VCS has some neat stuff). We need to learn the tool and use the tool for version-control, not just hide it away and only push it from time to time with a ten foot pole. Otherwise people will see right away that we're just faking the integration. So in VW I wouldn't try to swap git in as a just a different "database back end" behind Store. I think it needs to be full on file based VC integration (ala CVST or whatever) that can run side by side with Store if you wanted. Indeed. It might even be necessary to support out-of-the-image development. That includes ditching chunk format in favor of a syntax someone might actually want to write (like GST). - Bert -

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > On 10/29/2010 04:15 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > > Another significant hurdle was that each dialect has it's own fileout > > format. CVST allowed using SIF as well for that reason, but that's > > foreign to every dialect. Would you be happy to commit your sources > > to git in SIF? > > I don't think inter-dialect communication is a problem. Any dialect > should be able to use whatever it prefers, like XML for VW or chunks for > Squeak or its own syntax for GST. Did CVST actually rely on SIF or did > it just "allow" using it? No, it had configurable "source codec" for that reason, so you could use native chunks or SIF (when I started, VW 5i wasn't out yet, so no XML). But SIF was critical when we had our our cross-dialect workshop with Steve Wart (Dolphin) and Brian Hogan (VA) at Camp Smalltalk in Colorado Springs. And we did get it going between the three dialects there. Anyway, yes, for dialect specific project, SIF wouldn't be necessary, but I feel we'd be missing an opportunity here. If you commit your project into something like github in a portable format, the chances of the project taking off in another dialect as well are greatly increased IMO. It may actually help our community to stop diverging so much and promote more collaboration. Look how adopting monticello in Gemstone helped the portability of Seaside between the two dialects. Why raise arbitrary barriers ? Another point I'd like to emphasize, if we want to attract people from other languages claiming integration with these VCS, it's not enough to merely use them as just a back-end store for our source. We have to step outside of our comfort zone and adopt the development model that comes with it (and it might actually do us good, this new crop of VCS has some neat stuff). We need to learn the tool and use the tool for version-control, not just hide it away and only push it from time to time with a ten foot pole. Otherwise people will see right away that we're just faking the integration. So in VW I wouldn't try to swap git in as a just a different "database back end" behind Store. I think it needs to be full on file based VC integration (ala CVST or whatever) that can run side by side with Store if you wanted.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 04:15 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > Another significant hurdle was that each dialect has it's own fileout > format. CVST allowed using SIF as well for that reason, but that's > foreign to every dialect. Would you be happy to commit your sources > to git in SIF? I don't think inter-dialect communication is a problem. Any dialect should be able to use whatever it prefers, like XML for VW or chunks for Squeak or its own syntax for GST. Did CVST actually rely on SIF or did it just "allow" using it? Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend > for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per > package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. > > Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in > http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git > bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... I played with this back in 2000, when VW didn't have it's own VCS yet. Some might remember a project called CVST (http://cvstproj.sourceforge.net/) Ultimately I stopped working on it, because VW got Store, and Squeak got Monticello shortly after, and each of the dialect specific VCSs had some interesting features that CVS (back then) couldn't provide (not easily at least). The communities clearly valued the additional capabilities that their solutions provided. I tried to push CVST as a cross-dialect solution, but there seemed to be little interest in that. Another significant hurdle was that each dialect has it's own fileout format. CVST allowed using SIF as well for that reason, but that's foreign to every dialect. Would you be happy to commit your sources to git in SIF? Anyway, one aspect that I liked about CVST was that the image could be treated as a sort of "fancy editor" for the working copy of your code in the working directory, which might appeal to newcomers from other languages too. It's not tied to CVS in any way, you could use svn or git with it just as well (Here are slides that talk a bit more about how it worked http://www.slideshare.net/mkobetic/01-stscvst) It would require some update to plug into current packaging structures (e.g. packages in VW, it was integrated with parcels back then), but that wouldn't be difficult. Some level of dialect specific tool integration would be needed (I wrote some for VW, but those would mostly be replaced by rather simple RB extensions), overall I would expect it to be much work. What I wonder about though, if we did bring it up to date (or came up with something completely new), would people actually use it ? Because if most would still stick to their Store, Monticello X, Envy, etc, presumably because of some cool feature that they'd miss, the "yet another VCS" would be just a waste of time. But maybe times have changed and we, Smalltalkers, are more likely to accept something like svn or git even if we have to give up some of the niceties of our home-brew solutions.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 03:27 PM, Damien Pollet wrote: >>> But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this >>> not really annoying for the people, because they deploy their >>> application on the web. > > Yes, but Ruby has really nice bindings to at least GTK and Cocoa. > Applications developed using that look just like their C / ObjC > counterparts, they do not pop an image window, etc They're not used very much though. I see more Shoes than GTK with Ruby I think. There's also a price to pay---GNU Smalltalk has nice GTK+ bindings, but when they crash in the bowels of GtkTreeModel you're left alone in gdb. :) Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Georg Heeg

Actually SeaBreeze does exactly what you propose here. For details see seabreeze.heeg.de. It is a UI Editor and framework on top of Seaside. Georg Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812 Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Frank Shearar Gesendet: Freitag, 29. Oktober 2010 11:52 An: ESUG Mailing list Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Graham McLeod <mcleod(a)iafrica.com> wrote: > Hi Dennis, Geert, Adres, Serge and other commenters.. > > Doing good UI's is still quite hard and labour intensive - Seaside > provides a great framework, but we are still working pretty much at > the level of HTML / CSS concepts. I would like to see a layer > describing logical data structures e.g. List, Tree, Matrix, Document > (sequenced set of objects), Model (spatially arranged and possibly > connected objects) and a visual editor (or very high level DSL) that > allows composition of these into user interfaces with a publish / > subscribe event model and choice of suitable controls and widgets > based upon the logical data type. (this one is probably a bit too big > for a GSOC but may be tackled in pieces. ) Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? frank > Hope some of this makes sense. > Welcome feedback and comments. > Best regards, > > Graham > > Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > and observations and questions mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor > Summit > > Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very > pleasant and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture > shock > :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and > sending me there. > Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, > we know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it > looks like everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few > knows it still exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! > it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk > seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show > that for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found > language and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I > didn't manage to set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. > And I've heard many interesting ideas apparently, organizational > ideas mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just > outline some directions Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought > I've missed them, but apparently we didn't do it. At least I found > only this page > http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/lis > t. I didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important to > look closer at the projects we did within GSoC, understand where we > succeeded; where we failed; did we benefit and could we get more; make > some plans for the future... etc. > I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very important for > our small society. Of course, we can't be sure smalltalkers will be > invited again next year. (One of the things I tried to understand at > summit but still I don't: how does Google select mentor > organizations?) But this work will be very helpful, useful, advantageous what ever. > We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our projects. > Since money are involved here, we have a right to. That's money from > Google, but still. I think it should be a bit different from the way > free projects are evolved within Smalltalk society. Since we have such > opportunity we have to benefit as much as we can. > Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I don't > want to > :) but now I understand even better: we have to promote Smalltalk. I > know everybody knows that, but I still want to state it once again. > And promoting is not only about advertising and praising. We should be > more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects > with other societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's > extremely hard for me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) But > still we have if we don't want Smalltalk to die. In general, it looks > like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is > one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Damien Pollet

On Oct 29, 2010, at 14:29, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: >> On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >>> Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT >>> backend? >> >> It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo >> could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. > > There would be also one trivial, but possibly important social aspect. > Some Smalltalk projects might be hosted on GitHub, and become visible > to larger audience. ...and benefit from github's issue tracker, from a VCS that handles branches in a way that actually makes sense, from any continuous integration tool that you can trigger on post-commit hooks, and so on. The hard point is how to fit in the file-based crowd, without imposing too many idiosyncrasies, but without loosing the power of smalltalk-specific tools. -- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Damien Pollet

On Oct 29, 2010, at 12:19, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not > really annoying for the people, because they deploy their application > on the web. Yes, but Ruby has really nice bindings to at least GTK and Cocoa. Applications developed using that look just like their C / ObjC counterparts, they do not pop an image window, etc -- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > > People choose a programming environment based on (most important > > first): > > > > 1) what everybody else is using > > 2) what seems familiar to them > > 3) what is cool > > 4) what is good > > IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First > environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment > can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it > requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our > priority zero. To some extent that intersects with 3), and I'd include it in 4) too: what you can produce, and how productive you are in doing it. I stand by my claim that 1) and 2) are more important in achieving mass success. 4) just helps guarantee a long life. Mind you, 1) should be rephrased to "what everybody else seems to be using", and a big score on 3) can outweigh a smaller difference on 1) and 2) over time: your message will get media coverage and some evaluators, helping to address 2) and 1) bit by bit. Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT >> backend? > > It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo > could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. There would be also one trivial, but possibly important social aspect. Some Smalltalk projects might be hosted on GitHub, and become visible to larger audience. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > People choose a programming environment based on (most important first): > > 1) what everybody else is using > 2) what seems familiar to them > 3) what is cool > 4) what is good IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our priority zero. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> ... For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend >> for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per >> package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. >> >> Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in >> http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello<-> GST+git >> bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... > > Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT > backend? It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by 'Markus Rips'

>Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code >panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a >SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? > >frank Hi Frank seaBreeze is such a tool for seaside. If someone is interested, have a look at: http://seabreeze.heeg.de/ Markus ________________________________ Markus Rips * Senior Consultant / certified Scrum Master * markus.rips(a)heeg.de phone: +49 231 9 75 99 24 * fax: +49 231 9 75 99 20 Georg Heeg eK Dortmund Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

Jan Vrany wrote: > > On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > > > interface with standard VCS > > Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion. > > > > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? > > Smalltalk/X for instance :-) Thanks! But to return to my criteria: 1) what everybody else is using 2) what seems familiar to them 3) what is cool 4) what is good Even in the Smalltalk community, Smalltalk/X isn't 1). And looking at the web pages, with not even a single picture of the IDE or Smalltalk/X applications on the Products > Smalltalk/X pages, it may find itself in pretty big trouble on 3). That's a real shame, in an era when even one-person companies and research projects have smart videos showing off their products. Particularly since from what I hear, Smalltalk/X does pretty well on 4). Sorry if that sounds harsh - I do understand the other side of the coin, i.e. that there's hardly any money to be made by selling software development environments these days. Good luck to eXept with expecco, which I guess is what they focus on now. Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Paolo Bonzini-2 wrote: > > ... For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend > for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per > package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. > > Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in > http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git > bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... > Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT backend? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Jan Vrany

On Fri, 2010-10-29 at 13:48 +0200, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in > > Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based > > development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing > > debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based > > development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on > > another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus > > on the low-hanging fruit. > > > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > > interface with standard VCS > > GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now) > hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement > ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically > borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS > hooks should not be hard. > > Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to > something more modern. > Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion. > > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? Smalltalk/X for instance :-) Jan > > And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? > > GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there. > It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in > Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based > development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing > debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based > development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on > another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus > on the low-hanging fruit. > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > interface with standard VCS GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now) hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS hooks should not be hard. Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to something more modern. > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? > And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there. It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

James Robertson wrote: > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think I don't think these are the major issues these days. VW's widgets are close to standard widgets these days, and most other apps' widgets diverge from the standards anyway. Squeak will suffer far more, as its look is further from the standard (last time I looked). Most IDEs are very much "all in one window", so I think VW suffers more there. The single window of Pharo and Squeak feels odd to a VW user, not to a normal person :-). Of course Pharo and Squeak could do more to have a single big IDE window with fixed panes, rather than the multiple floating windows-within-a-window that they had last time I looked. Then again, the CodeBubbles demo has got people excited, and that's pretty close to a Smalltalk "multiple browser windows" model. http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm Steve

Oct. 29, 2010