October 2010 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Marten Feldtmann

James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles and be happy with it. * e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives me mad. * the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another. * the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk. * Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, multithreading area ... * delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ... * we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world. * even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use already available software components. Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime license problems). Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson: > I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So > > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think > > I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require people to get past: > > -- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor > -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools > > the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously >

Oct. 30, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Georg Heeg wrote: > > Actually SeaBreeze does exactly what you propose here. For details see > seabreeze.heeg.de. It is a UI Editor and framework on top of Seaside. > I just find the SeaBreeze Cincom software license agreement is just a bit of an awkward hurdle although I do like some concepts SeaBreeze and WebVelocity are addressing. The seabreeze.heeg.de website also really needs an up-to-date look and feel. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > It's definitely a step towards that, though. Does your experience with > CVST suggest that it's better to do both steps at the same time? Fair enough, but I would hope that whatever solution is chosen, it is open towards eventually being able to support cross-dialect projects. > I would be worried that including in an "initial battle plan" an > editor-friendly syntax would lead to endless discussions and no code > produced. Yes, but I'm more worried about "real" vs "fake" integration, than I am about particulars of a syntax. With fake integration all you'll get with git is push, pull and commit, leaving all the rest of the capabilities behind. That will not make us a good team player.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Sean P. DeNigris

SergeStinckwich wrote: > > So if we have a Smalltalk text pane with a VI or emacs bindings, they > will be happy ? ;-) > If I had VI key bindings when I started using Squeak, it would have eased my adoption greatly - it was really hard for me to give up the power and efficiency of doing everything without taking my fingers off the keyboard. One of the answers I got was that because good Smalltalk methods are short, you don't need them - ha ha. So we have our own religion, too :) In actuality, this just makes the dramatic productivity increase the key bindings offer less. But here's the joke - the SVI project provides VI bindings. Here's another, Lukas showed a git interface at ESUG. A third? The GTK bindings mentioned were originally in Squeak, but there was no interest (per steph). To me, the primary issue is an inability to use and improve the things that we *already* have because: * I can't understand the intention of code - no tests and documentation * I don't know they exist - no central place/process which includes the above It seems the pattern is: 1. work on something awesome 2. let it disappear into squeaksource, because no one can find it, or figure out how to use it 3. 5 years later, have someone else do the same awesome thing from scratch 4. repeat step 2 my 2c Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 05:58 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > "Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: >> Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside >> Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the >> integration with the tool is kind of fake. > > Sure, but that just helps you to do part of a project in smalltalk, > it doesn't help much with attracting new people to Smalltalk. It's definitely a step towards that, though. Does your experience with CVST suggest that it's better to do both steps at the same time? I would be worried that including in an "initial battle plan" an editor-friendly syntax would lead to endless discussions and no code produced. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside > Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the > integration with the tool is kind of fake. Sure, but that just helps you to do part of a project in smalltalk, it doesn't help much with attracting new people to Smalltalk.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 05:34 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: > On 29.10.2010, at 16:40, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > >> Otherwise people will see right away that we're just faking the >> integration. So in VW I wouldn't try to swap git in as a just a >> different "database back end" behind Store. I think it needs to be >> full on file based VC integration (ala CVST or whatever) that can >> run side by side with Store if you wanted. > > Indeed. It might even be necessary to support out-of-the-image > development. That can come later. Chunk format is actually passable if you only have to do that every once in a while (because you use the IDE). Ability to work seamlessly with people that use the tools outside Smalltalk is already a big step forward. It will often do even if the integration with the tool is kind of fake. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Bert Freudenberg

On 29.10.2010, at 16:40, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > Another point I'd like to emphasize, if we want to attract people from other languages claiming integration with these VCS, it's not enough to merely use them as just a back-end store for our source. We have to step outside of our comfort zone and adopt the development model that comes with it (and it might actually do us good, this new crop of VCS has some neat stuff). We need to learn the tool and use the tool for version-control, not just hide it away and only push it from time to time with a ten foot pole. Otherwise people will see right away that we're just faking the integration. So in VW I wouldn't try to swap git in as a just a different "database back end" behind Store. I think it needs to be full on file based VC integration (ala CVST or whatever) that can run side by side with Store if you wanted. Indeed. It might even be necessary to support out-of-the-image development. That includes ditching chunk format in favor of a syntax someone might actually want to write (like GST). - Bert -

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > On 10/29/2010 04:15 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > > Another significant hurdle was that each dialect has it's own fileout > > format. CVST allowed using SIF as well for that reason, but that's > > foreign to every dialect. Would you be happy to commit your sources > > to git in SIF? > > I don't think inter-dialect communication is a problem. Any dialect > should be able to use whatever it prefers, like XML for VW or chunks for > Squeak or its own syntax for GST. Did CVST actually rely on SIF or did > it just "allow" using it? No, it had configurable "source codec" for that reason, so you could use native chunks or SIF (when I started, VW 5i wasn't out yet, so no XML). But SIF was critical when we had our our cross-dialect workshop with Steve Wart (Dolphin) and Brian Hogan (VA) at Camp Smalltalk in Colorado Springs. And we did get it going between the three dialects there. Anyway, yes, for dialect specific project, SIF wouldn't be necessary, but I feel we'd be missing an opportunity here. If you commit your project into something like github in a portable format, the chances of the project taking off in another dialect as well are greatly increased IMO. It may actually help our community to stop diverging so much and promote more collaboration. Look how adopting monticello in Gemstone helped the portability of Seaside between the two dialects. Why raise arbitrary barriers ? Another point I'd like to emphasize, if we want to attract people from other languages claiming integration with these VCS, it's not enough to merely use them as just a back-end store for our source. We have to step outside of our comfort zone and adopt the development model that comes with it (and it might actually do us good, this new crop of VCS has some neat stuff). We need to learn the tool and use the tool for version-control, not just hide it away and only push it from time to time with a ten foot pole. Otherwise people will see right away that we're just faking the integration. So in VW I wouldn't try to swap git in as a just a different "database back end" behind Store. I think it needs to be full on file based VC integration (ala CVST or whatever) that can run side by side with Store if you wanted.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 04:15 PM, mkobetic(a)cincom.com wrote: > Another significant hurdle was that each dialect has it's own fileout > format. CVST allowed using SIF as well for that reason, but that's > foreign to every dialect. Would you be happy to commit your sources > to git in SIF? I don't think inter-dialect communication is a problem. Any dialect should be able to use whatever it prefers, like XML for VW or chunks for Squeak or its own syntax for GST. Did CVST actually rely on SIF or did it just "allow" using it? Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by mkobetic＠cincom.com

"Paolo Bonzini"<bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend > for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per > package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. > > Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in > http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git > bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... I played with this back in 2000, when VW didn't have it's own VCS yet. Some might remember a project called CVST (http://cvstproj.sourceforge.net/) Ultimately I stopped working on it, because VW got Store, and Squeak got Monticello shortly after, and each of the dialect specific VCSs had some interesting features that CVS (back then) couldn't provide (not easily at least). The communities clearly valued the additional capabilities that their solutions provided. I tried to push CVST as a cross-dialect solution, but there seemed to be little interest in that. Another significant hurdle was that each dialect has it's own fileout format. CVST allowed using SIF as well for that reason, but that's foreign to every dialect. Would you be happy to commit your sources to git in SIF? Anyway, one aspect that I liked about CVST was that the image could be treated as a sort of "fancy editor" for the working copy of your code in the working directory, which might appeal to newcomers from other languages too. It's not tied to CVS in any way, you could use svn or git with it just as well (Here are slides that talk a bit more about how it worked http://www.slideshare.net/mkobetic/01-stscvst) It would require some update to plug into current packaging structures (e.g. packages in VW, it was integrated with parcels back then), but that wouldn't be difficult. Some level of dialect specific tool integration would be needed (I wrote some for VW, but those would mostly be replaced by rather simple RB extensions), overall I would expect it to be much work. What I wonder about though, if we did bring it up to date (or came up with something completely new), would people actually use it ? Because if most would still stick to their Store, Monticello X, Envy, etc, presumably because of some cool feature that they'd miss, the "yet another VCS" would be just a waste of time. But maybe times have changed and we, Smalltalkers, are more likely to accept something like svn or git even if we have to give up some of the niceties of our home-brew solutions.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 03:27 PM, Damien Pollet wrote: >>> But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this >>> not really annoying for the people, because they deploy their >>> application on the web. > > Yes, but Ruby has really nice bindings to at least GTK and Cocoa. > Applications developed using that look just like their C / ObjC > counterparts, they do not pop an image window, etc They're not used very much though. I see more Shoes than GTK with Ruby I think. There's also a price to pay---GNU Smalltalk has nice GTK+ bindings, but when they crash in the bowels of GtkTreeModel you're left alone in gdb. :) Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Georg Heeg

Actually SeaBreeze does exactly what you propose here. For details see seabreeze.heeg.de. It is a UI Editor and framework on top of Seaside. Georg Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812 Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: esug-list-bounces(a)lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Frank Shearar Gesendet: Freitag, 29. Oktober 2010 11:52 An: ESUG Mailing list Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Graham McLeod <mcleod(a)iafrica.com> wrote: > Hi Dennis, Geert, Adres, Serge and other commenters.. > > Doing good UI's is still quite hard and labour intensive - Seaside > provides a great framework, but we are still working pretty much at > the level of HTML / CSS concepts. I would like to see a layer > describing logical data structures e.g. List, Tree, Matrix, Document > (sequenced set of objects), Model (spatially arranged and possibly > connected objects) and a visual editor (or very high level DSL) that > allows composition of these into user interfaces with a publish / > subscribe event model and choice of suitable controls and widgets > based upon the logical data type. (this one is probably a bit too big > for a GSOC but may be tackled in pieces. ) Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? frank > Hope some of this makes sense. > Welcome feedback and comments. > Best regards, > > Graham > > Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > and observations and questions mostly inspired by GSoC Mentor > Summit > > Mentor Summit was a great event! I didn't expect it to be THIS :) Very > pleasant and very hard for me: so many people, language and culture > shock > :) Great experience for me personally. Thank ESUG for choosing and > sending me there. > Bad news: Smalltalk is not popular. Well, it's not that new actually, > we know it. But I didn't manage to fix it :) Seriously: actually, it > looks like everybody knows Smalltalk (they know it existed I mean; few > knows it still exists), but it is treated like a black and white movie. People say "wow! > it's cool" and go to see Avatar. :( So developers don't take Smalltalk > seriously. We (Smalltalkers) know it's a mistake. But we have to show > that for others. And I found myself unable to do that there. I found > language and, more likely, culture barrier is too big to overcome. I > didn't manage to set up a two-way communication with others. So I listened mostly. > And I've heard many interesting ideas apparently, organizational > ideas mostly. I need some time to process them. So, for now I'll just > outline some directions Did we summarize our GSoC results? I thought > I've missed them, but apparently we didn't do it. At least I found > only this page > http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code-2010-esug/downloads/lis > t. I didn't care much before, but now I think it is very important to > look closer at the projects we did within GSoC, understand where we > succeeded; where we failed; did we benefit and could we get more; make > some plans for the future... etc. > I think we should pay more attention to GSoC. It is very important for > our small society. Of course, we can't be sure smalltalkers will be > invited again next year. (One of the things I tried to understand at > summit but still I don't: how does Google select mentor > organizations?) But this work will be very helpful, useful, advantageous what ever. > We should be more serious about monitoring and controlling our projects. > Since money are involved here, we have a right to. That's money from > Google, but still. I think it should be a bit different from the way > free projects are evolved within Smalltalk society. Since we have such > opportunity we have to benefit as much as we can. > Smalltalk gives me competitive advantages. For that matter I don't > want to > :) but now I understand even better: we have to promote Smalltalk. I > know everybody knows that, but I still want to state it once again. > And promoting is not only about advertising and praising. We should be > more open. We should find a way to start some cooperative projects > with other societies/languages. I don't know how to do it. And it's > extremely hard for me as I believe in Smalltalk superiority :) But > still we have if we don't want Smalltalk to die. In general, it looks > like making Smalltalk more open should be our priority, and this is > one of the few ways to enhance prestige of Smalltalk among developers. > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Damien Pollet

On Oct 29, 2010, at 14:29, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: >> On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >>> Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT >>> backend? >> >> It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo >> could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. > > There would be also one trivial, but possibly important social aspect. > Some Smalltalk projects might be hosted on GitHub, and become visible > to larger audience. ...and benefit from github's issue tracker, from a VCS that handles branches in a way that actually makes sense, from any continuous integration tool that you can trigger on post-commit hooks, and so on. The hard point is how to fit in the file-based crowd, without imposing too many idiosyncrasies, but without loosing the power of smalltalk-specific tools. -- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Damien Pollet

On Oct 29, 2010, at 12:19, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > But comparing to Ruby, there is no standard UI in Ruby and this not > really annoying for the people, because they deploy their application > on the web. Yes, but Ruby has really nice bindings to at least GTK and Cocoa. Applications developed using that look just like their C / ObjC counterparts, they do not pop an image window, etc -- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > > People choose a programming environment based on (most important > > first): > > > > 1) what everybody else is using > > 2) what seems familiar to them > > 3) what is cool > > 4) what is good > > IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First > environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment > can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it > requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our > priority zero. To some extent that intersects with 3), and I'd include it in 4) too: what you can produce, and how productive you are in doing it. I stand by my claim that 1) and 2) are more important in achieving mass success. 4) just helps guarantee a long life. Mind you, 1) should be rephrased to "what everybody else seems to be using", and a big score on 3) can outweigh a smaller difference on 1) and 2) over time: your message will get media coverage and some evaluators, helping to address 2) and 1) bit by bit. Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini(a)gnu.org> wrote: > On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT >> backend? > > It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo > could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. There would be also one trivial, but possibly important social aspect. Some Smalltalk projects might be hosted on GitHub, and become visible to larger audience. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Steven Kelly <stevek(a)metacase.com> wrote: > People choose a programming environment based on (most important first): > > 1) what everybody else is using > 2) what seems familiar to them > 3) what is cool > 4) what is good IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our priority zero. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 02:12 PM, Geert Claes wrote: >> ... For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend >> for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per >> package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. >> >> Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in >> http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello<-> GST+git >> bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... > > Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT > backend? It is what you use for other assets. So the Monticello git-backed repo could be simply a subtree of the project-wide repo. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by 'Markus Rips'

>Squeak uses ToolBuilder to describe UI elements - lists, buttons, code >panes, menus, and the like. Has anyone considered writing a >SeasideToolBuilder to generate HTML/CSS? > >frank Hi Frank seaBreeze is such a tool for seaside. If someone is interested, have a look at: http://seabreeze.heeg.de/ Markus ________________________________ Markus Rips * Senior Consultant / certified Scrum Master * markus.rips(a)heeg.de phone: +49 231 9 75 99 24 * fax: +49 231 9 75 99 20 Georg Heeg eK Dortmund Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

Jan Vrany wrote: > > On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > > > interface with standard VCS > > Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion. > > > > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? > > Smalltalk/X for instance :-) Thanks! But to return to my criteria: 1) what everybody else is using 2) what seems familiar to them 3) what is cool 4) what is good Even in the Smalltalk community, Smalltalk/X isn't 1). And looking at the web pages, with not even a single picture of the IDE or Smalltalk/X applications on the Products > Smalltalk/X pages, it may find itself in pretty big trouble on 3). That's a real shame, in an era when even one-person companies and research projects have smart videos showing off their products. Particularly since from what I hear, Smalltalk/X does pretty well on 4). Sorry if that sounds harsh - I do understand the other side of the coin, i.e. that there's hardly any money to be made by selling software development environments these days. Good luck to eXept with expecco, which I guess is what they focus on now. Steve

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Geert Claes

Paolo Bonzini-2 wrote: > > ... For the VCS, I've always been surprised there's no git or svn backend > for Monticello. It wouldn't seem _too_ hard to have a directory per > package and replace each .mcz file with a commit in that directory. > > Alternatively, there's actually very little GST-specific code in > http://github.com/timfel/gitocello (a Squeak+Monticello <-> GST+git > bridge), so if someone wants to play with it... > Sounds very interesting, what would the main advantages be of using a GIT backend? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Few-thoughts-about-Google-Summer-of-Code-tp3018404p30… Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Jan Vrany

On Fri, 2010-10-29 at 13:48 +0200, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in > > Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based > > development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing > > debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based > > development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on > > another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus > > on the low-hanging fruit. > > > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > > interface with standard VCS > > GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now) > hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement > ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically > borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS > hooks should not be hard. > > Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to > something more modern. > Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion. > > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? Smalltalk/X for instance :-) Jan > > And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? > > GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there. > It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing. > > Paolo > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Paolo Bonzini

On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in > Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based > development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing > debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based > development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on > another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus > on the low-hanging fruit. > > Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files, > interface with standard VCS GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now) hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS hooks should not be hard. Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to something more modern. > and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE? > And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there? GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there. It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing. Paolo

Oct. 29, 2010

Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code

by Steven Kelly

James Robertson wrote: > -- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think > -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think I don't think these are the major issues these days. VW's widgets are close to standard widgets these days, and most other apps' widgets diverge from the standards anyway. Squeak will suffer far more, as its look is further from the standard (last time I looked). Most IDEs are very much "all in one window", so I think VW suffers more there. The single window of Pharo and Squeak feels odd to a VW user, not to a normal person :-). Of course Pharo and Squeak could do more to have a single big IDE window with fixed panes, rather than the multiple floating windows-within-a-window that they had last time I looked. Then again, the CodeBubbles demo has got people excited, and that's pretty close to a Smalltalk "multiple browser windows" model. http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm Steve

Oct. 29, 2010