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Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!
by Nicolas Petton May 16, 2013

May 16, 2013

Hi again, As for S8 being based on Amber/Jtalk, I'm not talking about contributions, of course. But for S8 itself (the Smalltalk implementation), while you keep saying it's not based on Amber, it is more than obvious that it is the case. Taking into account that modifications have been made (some quite large, I agree), here's a quick list that I can make, comparing to Amber/Jtalk as of sept. 2011: - The bootstrap is Amber bootstrap (almost a 100% copy/paste) - The JS representation is taken from Amber - The implementation of base classes are from Amber - The MOP classes implementation is taken from Amber - Classes and methods implementation and manipulation in JavaScript are directly taken from Amber - Syntax additions are directly taken from Amber - The AST is Amber's AST - The CompiledMethod implementation is taken from Amber (it's a "low" thingie, reflects the implementation, that's why I list it here) - The compiler is a modified version of the old Amber compiler (which is bad, you should update ;-) ) - The wrapped classes are Amber wrapped classes (Number, String, Array, Boolean, BlockClosure and so on) - The ClassBuilder is the Amber class builder - The Collection classes are directly taken from Amber - The Stream and StringStream implementations are taken from Amber - The PetitParser port is taken from Amber (itself adapted from Clamato) - I could probably go on, but I am getting tired... That's basically already the entire smalltalk implementation. It very clearly shows that S8 is based on Amber. I also saw a number of issues that I were fixed after you forked, I could list them here. So, trust me, I looked at the right part of the code: the Smalltalk implementation available today on your website. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to promote Amber this way at all (that would be really sick), and I think that all of this is really unfortunate for everyone, including me. Cheers, Nico On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> wrote: > Nicolas, > > At the time I adapted my works to jTalk, Amber did not exist. > The last snapshot of Jtalk I have downloaded was > sept,27 2011 (date taken from my backups, and it was downloaded > for update of dev. repository, not to use in S8 at that time). > I will copy the exact lines present in jtalk license file to make > it exact (hope tomorrow will be online). > If I put Amber as origin, it will be honored people not > related/responsible to the sources. > >> If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 >> is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) > > It is not "based on Amber", Amber was not published > at the time I read the code. > >> with a link and the license, >> it would completely solve the issue. > > Will edit our license including exact lines of jtalk's > LICENSE file. > >> Getting the license file is currently almost impossible >> unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think >> that's good enough, sorry. > > It is easy; press the "License terms" link present at any > contribution page or evaluate > the expression (with objects, evaluating is as easy > as navigating files) in any image running S8. > >> Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, >> all I require from you is >> to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**. > >> What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of >> S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as >> compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** >> Amber with modifications and additions to it. > > I think you have not read a good part; and you are > interested in promoting your actual product Amber. > S8 has today a lot of frameworks -more than 40 at U8 site, > and +300 contribution pages; more than 16mb of .st files- > running on diferent platforms/devices. > > The point here is that I can't help you saying that S8 is based > on Amber; because it is based in a number of sources but > not Amber. > >> I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's >> at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, >> and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that >> this will not be needed). > > Please review your links. > It is similarity to Jtalk code what you find familiar. > >> I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today >> as they were resolved in Amber during its development over >> the last 2 years. > > Don't want to have a longer license string. :-P > Anyone finding an issue can solve it changing his/her > code base, and adding license lines to reference origins. > >> I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me >> here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are >> doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all. > > Ok, please go to your records and check the dates. > I have no downloads of Amber, so I can't check if it has > more diference to Jtalk than we can find for S8. > What I can say is that S8 is not a kernel, it is a lot of > COMPLETE frameworks to implement real apps > with smalltalk running multiple devices and platforms. > It is not something to read in a day. > >> Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I >> ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected. > > > Ale. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> > To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> > Cc: "esug-list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang(a)googlegroups.com>; <u8(a)smalltalking.net> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber! > > > Hi Ale, > > Thanks for getting back to me. I'm keeping the entire contents of your > response as you asked. > > If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based > on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) with a link and the license, > it would completely solve the issue. Getting the license file is > currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find > it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry. Your work is > based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is > to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**. > > What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of > S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as > compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with > modifications and additions to it. > > I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's > at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can > point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will > not be needed). I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today > as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2 > years. > > I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me > here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are > doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all. > > > Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I > ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected. > > Cheers, > Nico > > > On May 16, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> wrote: > >> Dear Nico, >> >> As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not subscribed, >> please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the point clear >> to persons that can read your asumptions about S8. >> >> I am continuosly making presentations (real and virtual meetings) about >> S8 (the project), the objetives and also "why we are doing what we are doing" >> using the current implementation just now. [*] >> S8, as an implementation, are resources we have to make a step in our objetives >> at Smalltalking (the Smalltalking objetives are stated in http://www.smalltalking.net >> web site as "Un emprendimiento para el estudio de Ambientes de Objetos Virtuales") >> and we have been working with the same objetives from year 2001 (and I >> personally have been working more than a decade before the fundation >> of the association, at diferent levels, not only "writing code";) but also >> on design of concepts behind de use of virtual objects in syntetic ambiences, >> high perfomance execution environments -for smalltalk-, presentations about >> what "is" an OA and how it affects/change people, etc...) >> >> I feel you consider only the code of S8 trying to understand what we >> are doing; without enough information about us. >> It is something frequently observed here, most people interested >> in "the code" (there is a lot to read today in the age of open sources) >> but it is wrong to try to infer history from code/snapshot. >> The use of open systems can help to learn that objects are much more >> than code, specifications and tools; but it require that the smalltalker >> leave the habbits of thinking in smalltalk as a language (and >> written code or it's contents). >> >> On your first paragraph: >>> After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber >>> [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I >>> really don't like the statements on the website about the license and >>> origin of the project [3]. >> >> (wrong) there was a time when I wanted to make S8 implementation >> as much as possible compatible with jTalk, and adapted most of my code >> to jTalk implementation and semantics. But a short time after that I leaved >> that conformace restrictions (because I did not saw much development in >> jTalk, and saw modifications going on a way I don´t wanted >> to follow). I've wrote that in a personal email long time ago. >> >> S8 code can be considered a fork of jTalk, the same way as it can be >> considered a fork of other works (it contain source code from multiple >> open sources as stated in the license, present in each generated image). >> It is ok for me if people want to consider S8 a fork of one or other >> work, and also add lines to more origins in their copies of the code. >> I am not personally interested in code, credits nor written words. >> I am interested in always evolving systems (running >> in computer media and/or minds) and sharing experiences >> with people in motion (more than "one" history). >> >> On lincese terms... it is Smalltalk... and, as usual... >> >> The license terms of a S8 image can be read evaluating >> the following expression in a workspace: >> >> Smalltalk current licenseTerms >> >> it returns aString with the license terms >> in the environment it is currently running (it can change according to >> loaded frameworks at moment of evaluation) >> e.g. if you point your chrome browser to >> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html >> you can open a workspace and evaluate the code to check license >> under that conditions/time of execution. >> >> In case of running a S8 image in .net environment, that binds >> to .Net core frameworks running heterogeneous VM architecture, >> e.g. S8 for servers running IIS hosted sites >> you can see that #licenseTerms return aString including >> other "origins". >> It can also be the case for systems running on Android devices >> including frameworks to access native resources/services and/or >> browser applications doing computer vision tasks with frameworks >> I have written for that kind of applications. >> >> To try to understand the situation please consider that you made >> wrong asumptions on the reference [3] in your text. >> ---your refs--- >> "the project [3]" -> http://u8.smalltalking.net/ >> ------------------ >> >> U8 is not a project. It is a service, for social development >> using Smalltalk. A service given free by Smalltalking >> association to promote the use of smalltalk under the >> guides of our formulation about OA (popular in our region). >> >> There is not enough public information in written form >> about S8 project; it is something I use to do (to do not write >> papers :-) because I prefer to talk personally to produce >> more impact in people interested in OA; than to reach >> masses (e.g. exploit the marginal power of smalltalk). >> Sorry for that, I know it is the cause of confusion about >> other ways of working with smalltalk and also about most >> of the works I've made with my smalltalks :-) >> >> [*] I will make a presentation about S8 in a few days at STIC2003 ( http://www.stic.st/ ) >> and it will be a good place to see more about S8 than reading the code :-) >> I will also try to make presentations in Europe this year, so we can meet >> to talk about our objetives and what we are doing with S8; >> and what we have done with Smalltalk to people in >> the last decades. >> I know that the differences and impressions we have on each other >> will resolve with patience, time and talking about what we want to do >> when we are on a keyboard :-) >> >> all the best, >> Ale. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> >> To: "esug-list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang(a)googlegroups.com> >> Cc: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net>; <u8(a)smalltalking.net> >> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:15 AM >> Subject: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber! >> >> >> > > -- > Nicolas Petton > http://www.nicolas-petton.fr > > > -- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr

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Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!
by Nicolas Petton May 16, 2013

May 16, 2013

Ale, thanks for your answer. Again, your email is untouched at the bottom of this one. First, **Amber and Jtalk are the same project**. It was simply renamed: https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/commit/1af622cf99ce11d248525fd9b6b… http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2011-September/053788.… So I would appreciate if you could put the right name and website link, of course stating that you took the code in september 2011, to not include more recent contributions. Here you can find the right names to include: https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/contributors?from=2011-03-13&to=20… A link to this page would be perfectly fine too I think (I'm not a license expert). While adding the copyright notice, please put it somewhere visible on the website. Your FAQ cannot stay evasive as it is now, it must include the proper copyright notice. Cheers, Nico On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> wrote: > Nicolas, > > At the time I adapted my works to jTalk, Amber did not exist. > The last snapshot of Jtalk I have downloaded was > sept,27 2011 (date taken from my backups, and it was downloaded > for update of dev. repository, not to use in S8 at that time). > I will copy the exact lines present in jtalk license file to make > it exact (hope tomorrow will be online). > If I put Amber as origin, it will be honored people not > related/responsible to the sources. > >> If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 >> is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) > > It is not "based on Amber", Amber was not published > at the time I read the code. > >> with a link and the license, >> it would completely solve the issue. > > Will edit our license including exact lines of jtalk's > LICENSE file. > >> Getting the license file is currently almost impossible >> unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think >> that's good enough, sorry. > > It is easy; press the "License terms" link present at any > contribution page or evaluate > the expression (with objects, evaluating is as easy > as navigating files) in any image running S8. > >> Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, >> all I require from you is >> to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**. > >> What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of >> S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as >> compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** >> Amber with modifications and additions to it. > > I think you have not read a good part; and you are > interested in promoting your actual product Amber. > S8 has today a lot of frameworks -more than 40 at U8 site, > and +300 contribution pages; more than 16mb of .st files- > running on diferent platforms/devices. > > The point here is that I can't help you saying that S8 is based > on Amber; because it is based in a number of sources but > not Amber. > >> I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's >> at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, >> and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that >> this will not be needed). > > Please review your links. > It is similarity to Jtalk code what you find familiar. > >> I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today >> as they were resolved in Amber during its development over >> the last 2 years. > > Don't want to have a longer license string. :-P > Anyone finding an issue can solve it changing his/her > code base, and adding license lines to reference origins. > >> I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me >> here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are >> doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all. > > Ok, please go to your records and check the dates. > I have no downloads of Amber, so I can't check if it has > more diference to Jtalk than we can find for S8. > What I can say is that S8 is not a kernel, it is a lot of > COMPLETE frameworks to implement real apps > with smalltalk running multiple devices and platforms. > It is not something to read in a day. > >> Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I >> ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected. > > > Ale. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> > To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> > Cc: "esug-list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang(a)googlegroups.com>; <u8(a)smalltalking.net> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber! > > > Hi Ale, > > Thanks for getting back to me. I'm keeping the entire contents of your > response as you asked. > > If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based > on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) with a link and the license, > it would completely solve the issue. Getting the license file is > currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find > it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry. Your work is > based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is > to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**. > > What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of > S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as > compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with > modifications and additions to it. > > I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's > at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can > point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will > not be needed). I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today > as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2 > years. > > I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me > here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are > doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all. > > > Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I > ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected. > > Cheers, > Nico > > > On May 16, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> wrote: > >> Dear Nico, >> >> As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not subscribed, >> please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the point clear >> to persons that can read your asumptions about S8. >> >> I am continuosly making presentations (real and virtual meetings) about >> S8 (the project), the objetives and also "why we are doing what we are doing" >> using the current implementation just now. [*] >> S8, as an implementation, are resources we have to make a step in our objetives >> at Smalltalking (the Smalltalking objetives are stated in http://www.smalltalking.net >> web site as "Un emprendimiento para el estudio de Ambientes de Objetos Virtuales") >> and we have been working with the same objetives from year 2001 (and I >> personally have been working more than a decade before the fundation >> of the association, at diferent levels, not only "writing code";) but also >> on design of concepts behind de use of virtual objects in syntetic ambiences, >> high perfomance execution environments -for smalltalk-, presentations about >> what "is" an OA and how it affects/change people, etc...) >> >> I feel you consider only the code of S8 trying to understand what we >> are doing; without enough information about us. >> It is something frequently observed here, most people interested >> in "the code" (there is a lot to read today in the age of open sources) >> but it is wrong to try to infer history from code/snapshot. >> The use of open systems can help to learn that objects are much more >> than code, specifications and tools; but it require that the smalltalker >> leave the habbits of thinking in smalltalk as a language (and >> written code or it's contents). >> >> On your first paragraph: >>> After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber >>> [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I >>> really don't like the statements on the website about the license and >>> origin of the project [3]. >> >> (wrong) there was a time when I wanted to make S8 implementation >> as much as possible compatible with jTalk, and adapted most of my code >> to jTalk implementation and semantics. But a short time after that I leaved >> that conformace restrictions (because I did not saw much development in >> jTalk, and saw modifications going on a way I don´t wanted >> to follow). I've wrote that in a personal email long time ago. >> >> S8 code can be considered a fork of jTalk, the same way as it can be >> considered a fork of other works (it contain source code from multiple >> open sources as stated in the license, present in each generated image). >> It is ok for me if people want to consider S8 a fork of one or other >> work, and also add lines to more origins in their copies of the code. >> I am not personally interested in code, credits nor written words. >> I am interested in always evolving systems (running >> in computer media and/or minds) and sharing experiences >> with people in motion (more than "one" history). >> >> On lincese terms... it is Smalltalk... and, as usual... >> >> The license terms of a S8 image can be read evaluating >> the following expression in a workspace: >> >> Smalltalk current licenseTerms >> >> it returns aString with the license terms >> in the environment it is currently running (it can change according to >> loaded frameworks at moment of evaluation) >> e.g. if you point your chrome browser to >> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html >> you can open a workspace and evaluate the code to check license >> under that conditions/time of execution. >> >> In case of running a S8 image in .net environment, that binds >> to .Net core frameworks running heterogeneous VM architecture, >> e.g. S8 for servers running IIS hosted sites >> you can see that #licenseTerms return aString including >> other "origins". >> It can also be the case for systems running on Android devices >> including frameworks to access native resources/services and/or >> browser applications doing computer vision tasks with frameworks >> I have written for that kind of applications. >> >> To try to understand the situation please consider that you made >> wrong asumptions on the reference [3] in your text. >> ---your refs--- >> "the project [3]" -> http://u8.smalltalking.net/ >> ------------------ >> >> U8 is not a project. It is a service, for social development >> using Smalltalk. A service given free by Smalltalking >> association to promote the use of smalltalk under the >> guides of our formulation about OA (popular in our region). >> >> There is not enough public information in written form >> about S8 project; it is something I use to do (to do not write >> papers :-) because I prefer to talk personally to produce >> more impact in people interested in OA; than to reach >> masses (e.g. exploit the marginal power of smalltalk). >> Sorry for that, I know it is the cause of confusion about >> other ways of working with smalltalk and also about most >> of the works I've made with my smalltalks :-) >> >> [*] I will make a presentation about S8 in a few days at STIC2003 ( http://www.stic.st/ ) >> and it will be a good place to see more about S8 than reading the code :-) >> I will also try to make presentations in Europe this year, so we can meet >> to talk about our objetives and what we are doing with S8; >> and what we have done with Smalltalk to people in >> the last decades. >> I know that the differences and impressions we have on each other >> will resolve with patience, time and talking about what we want to do >> when we are on a keyboard :-) >> >> all the best, >> Ale. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> >> To: "esug-list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang(a)googlegroups.com> >> Cc: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net>; <u8(a)smalltalking.net> >> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:15 AM >> Subject: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber! >> >> >> > > -- > Nicolas Petton > http://www.nicolas-petton.fr > > > -- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr

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Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But it is not Amber!
by Paolo Bonzini May 16, 2013

May 16, 2013

Il 16/05/2013 17:38, Alejandro F. Reimondo ha scritto: > Hi Paolo, > > As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not > subscribed, > please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the > point clear > to persons that can read your email. Sure. >> The main system is at >> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html. It has >> a "MIT Licensed" link to the license, but it fails to list the >> copyright holders. > > The page do not load ok if you are using IE. > Please try it on Chrome or other webbrowser. > In case you must load the page in IE, press F5 to refresh > the page a few times and it will work :-) I was using Firefox. > The license terms in an open system can change through time > and can be read in case the system is working ok. I think you're confusing permissive license terms with "public domain". When someone releases code under a permissive (non-copyleft) license, they are not giving away their copyright. They are keeping the copyright, and granting to you the *license* to use the work according to the license text. In the MIT license you can read: * The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be * included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software. Your website is including the permission notice, but not the copyright notice. The source is including both, but there is no easy way to find it. As things are, you are not respecting the license. Also, you're confusing ideas (which cannot be copyrighted) with code. Of course the _ideas_ in a modern Smalltalk environment formed slowly during the past 41 years. And everybody is free to conceive a JavaScript implementation of Smalltalk. But if the idea is "translated into code" by cut-and-paste of someone else's work, you must acknowledge that work and their authors. For example, the Stream libraries of GNU Smalltalk and Pharo implement the same interface. I _never_ looked at Pharo code (much less cut-and-pasted it) when writing it, hence I can say that the entire copyright of that code is mine. If I had taken code from Pharo, I should have added a "Copyright (C) 2011 the Pharo authors" or something like that. I'm sure there is no malice in your action, but you should correct the references to the license so that they also include the copyright holders. And your FAQ should not contain evasive answers, nor downplay copyright. If someone asked you if U8 is a derivative of Jtalk or Amber, the best thing to do is to answer that clearly, perhaps even provide a reference to the version of the code that you forked from. It would let interested people backport bugfixes from Jtalk/Amber to U8, for example. Most importantly, remember that this is not about culture, it is about _law_. Do the same thing tomorrow to someone less friendly than Nicolas, and you might get in court. I suggest reading http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source-software/github-needs-take-open-sour…. > If the system has errors (the case with IE) it can fail to show > the license terms, at the current state of the system. This was not the case. Paolo > I have written a response to Nicolas with more information > about S8 images running on diferent execution environments > and license terms. > > cheers, > Ale. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paolo Bonzini" <bonzini(a)gnu.org> > To: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> > Cc: "esug-list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" > <amber-lang(a)googlegroups.com>; <u8(a)smalltalking.net>; "Alejandro F. > Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But > it is not Amber! > > > Il 16/05/2013 15:15, Nicolas Petton ha scritto: >>>> Now maybe I'm just too stupid and I " have not reached the >>>> understanding of Smalltalk required to adopt a POV consistent with >>>> S8"... > > This certainly makes no sense, apart from the snarkiness. > > The text that Guido found is from > http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/147/index.html, but > there's no reason to believe that it extends to more than that project. > > The main system is at > http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html. It has > a "MIT Licensed" link to the license, but it fails to list the > copyright holders. > > The source code at > http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/smalltalking/64/u8.image.js does > list copyright holders: > > ------------ > S8 - Basic U8 image. > Copyright (C) 2013 - http://u8.smalltalking.net/u8.html > Copyright (C) 2013 Alejandro F. Reimondo > <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> http://www.aleReimondo.com > > Parts of source code written for Jtalk, Copyright (C) 2011 by Nicolas > Petton <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> > Also code and ideas from Clamato (http://clamato.net) written by Avi > Byrant. > The PetitParser library, published by Lukas Renggli > (http://lukas-renggli.ch) and released under the MIT license. > And people that contributed to Smalltalk on diverse media > years(decades) before this license holders claimed ownership. > ------------- > > It would be nice if it were a bit easier to find... > > Paolo >> > > >

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Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!
by Nicolas Petton May 16, 2013

May 16, 2013

Hi Ale, Thanks for getting back to me. I'm keeping the entire contents of your response as you asked. If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) with a link and the license, it would completely solve the issue. Getting the license file is currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry. Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**. What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with modifications and additions to it. I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will not be needed). I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2 years. I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all. Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected. Cheers, Nico On May 16, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net> wrote: > Dear Nico, > > As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not subscribed, > please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the point clear > to persons that can read your asumptions about S8. > > I am continuosly making presentations (real and virtual meetings) about > S8 (the project), the objetives and also "why we are doing what we are doing" > using the current implementation just now. [*] > S8, as an implementation, are resources we have to make a step in our objetives > at Smalltalking (the Smalltalking objetives are stated in http://www.smalltalking.net > web site as "Un emprendimiento para el estudio de Ambientes de Objetos Virtuales") > and we have been working with the same objetives from year 2001 (and I > personally have been working more than a decade before the fundation > of the association, at diferent levels, not only "writing code";) but also > on design of concepts behind de use of virtual objects in syntetic ambiences, > high perfomance execution environments -for smalltalk-, presentations about > what "is" an OA and how it affects/change people, etc...) > > I feel you consider only the code of S8 trying to understand what we > are doing; without enough information about us. > It is something frequently observed here, most people interested > in "the code" (there is a lot to read today in the age of open sources) > but it is wrong to try to infer history from code/snapshot. > The use of open systems can help to learn that objects are much more > than code, specifications and tools; but it require that the smalltalker > leave the habbits of thinking in smalltalk as a language (and > written code or it's contents). > > On your first paragraph: >> After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber >> [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I >> really don't like the statements on the website about the license and >> origin of the project [3]. > > (wrong) there was a time when I wanted to make S8 implementation > as much as possible compatible with jTalk, and adapted most of my code > to jTalk implementation and semantics. But a short time after that I leaved > that conformace restrictions (because I did not saw much development in > jTalk, and saw modifications going on a way I don´t wanted > to follow). I've wrote that in a personal email long time ago. > > S8 code can be considered a fork of jTalk, the same way as it can be > considered a fork of other works (it contain source code from multiple > open sources as stated in the license, present in each generated image). > It is ok for me if people want to consider S8 a fork of one or other > work, and also add lines to more origins in their copies of the code. > I am not personally interested in code, credits nor written words. > I am interested in always evolving systems (running > in computer media and/or minds) and sharing experiences > with people in motion (more than "one" history). > > On lincese terms... it is Smalltalk... and, as usual... > > The license terms of a S8 image can be read evaluating > the following expression in a workspace: > > Smalltalk current licenseTerms > > it returns aString with the license terms > in the environment it is currently running (it can change according to > loaded frameworks at moment of evaluation) > e.g. if you point your chrome browser to > http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html > you can open a workspace and evaluate the code to check license > under that conditions/time of execution. > > In case of running a S8 image in .net environment, that binds > to .Net core frameworks running heterogeneous VM architecture, > e.g. S8 for servers running IIS hosted sites > you can see that #licenseTerms return aString including > other "origins". > It can also be the case for systems running on Android devices > including frameworks to access native resources/services and/or > browser applications doing computer vision tasks with frameworks > I have written for that kind of applications. > > To try to understand the situation please consider that you made > wrong asumptions on the reference [3] in your text. > ---your refs--- > "the project [3]" -> http://u8.smalltalking.net/ > ------------------ > > U8 is not a project. It is a service, for social development > using Smalltalk. A service given free by Smalltalking > association to promote the use of smalltalk under the > guides of our formulation about OA (popular in our region). > > There is not enough public information in written form > about S8 project; it is something I use to do (to do not write > papers :-) because I prefer to talk personally to produce > more impact in people interested in OA; than to reach > masses (e.g. exploit the marginal power of smalltalk). > Sorry for that, I know it is the cause of confusion about > other ways of working with smalltalk and also about most > of the works I've made with my smalltalks :-) > > [*] I will make a presentation about S8 in a few days at STIC2003 ( http://www.stic.st/ ) > and it will be a good place to see more about S8 than reading the code :-) > I will also try to make presentations in Europe this year, so we can meet > to talk about our objetives and what we are doing with S8; > and what we have done with Smalltalk to people in > the last decades. > I know that the differences and impressions we have on each other > will resolve with patience, time and talking about what we want to do > when we are on a keyboard :-) > > all the best, > Ale. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com> > To: "esug-list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang(a)googlegroups.com> > Cc: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo(a)smalltalking.net>; <u8(a)smalltalking.net> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:15 AM > Subject: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber! > > > -- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr

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It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But it is not Amber!
by Nicolas Petton May 16, 2013

May 16, 2013

Hi! After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I really don't like the statements on the website about the license and origin of the project [3]. S8 doesn't fulfil the MIT license as the copyright of Amber should be clearly stated on the S8 website. Quoting the page: " How/where S8 is different from product/project XXX ? S8 as result of regional scheme of concepts is unique and we don´t know about other formulations similar to S8. It is frequently asked if "S8 source code" is derivative work of other MIT licensed sources (please download and read license terms if it is still your interest). The question is incorrect (and we are free to do not answer incorrect questions here) because it means that the person asking has not reached the understanding of Smalltalk required to adopt a POV consistent with S8 (Smalltalk as not a language). " Moreover, I couldn't find anywhere on the website a link to such a license or any reference to amber being the original project. Stating that S8 is a fork of Amber there, instead of attempting to evade the question, would simply be fair play. As it is right now it looks more like stealing than forking an opensource project. In the world of opensource, I think this is really a shame :-/ Now maybe I'm just too stupid and I " have not reached the understanding of Smalltalk required to adopt a POV consistent with S8"... Cheers, Nico [1] http://u8.smalltalking.net/s8.aspx [2] http://amber-lang.net [3] http://u8.smalltalking.net/

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Re: [Esug-list] [amber-lang] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But it is not Amber!
by Nicolas Petton May 16, 2013

May 16, 2013

Hi Guido, where did you find this? Cheers, Nico On May 16, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > S8 - Embedding morphic.js > Copyright (C) 2013 - http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/147/index.html > Copyright (C) 2013 Alejandro F. Reimondo http://www.aleReimondo.com > > Parts of source code written for Jtalk, Copyright (C) 2011 by Nicolas Petton > Also code and ideas from Clamato (http://clamato.net) written by Avi Byrant. > The PetitParser library, published by Lukas Renggli (http://lukas-renggli.ch) and released under the MIT license. > And people that contributed to Smalltalk on diverse media years(decades) before this license holders claimed ownership. > Am 16.05.2013 15:15 schrieb "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas(a)gmail.com>: > Hi! > > After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber > [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I > really don't like the statements on the website about the license and > origin of the project [3]. > > S8 doesn't fulfil the MIT license as the copyright > of Amber should be clearly stated on the S8 website. > > Quoting the page: > > " > How/where S8 is different from product/project XXX ? > > S8 as result of regional scheme of concepts is unique and we don´t > know about other formulations similar to S8. It is frequently asked > if "S8 source code" is derivative work of other MIT licensed sources > (please download and read license terms if it is still your interest). > The question is incorrect (and we are free to do not answer incorrect > questions here) because it means that the person asking has not > reached the understanding of Smalltalk required to adopt a POV > consistent with S8 (Smalltalk as not a language). > " > > Moreover, I couldn't find anywhere on the website a link to such a > license or any reference to amber being the original project. > > Stating that S8 is a fork of Amber there, instead of attempting to > evade the question, would simply be fair play. As it is right now it > looks more like stealing than forking an opensource project. In the > world of opensource, I think this is really a shame :-/ > > Now maybe I'm just too stupid and I " have not reached the > understanding of Smalltalk required to adopt a POV consistent with > S8"... > > Cheers, Nico > > [1] http://u8.smalltalking.net/s8.aspx > [2] http://amber-lang.net > [3] http://u8.smalltalking.net/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to amber-lang+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr

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SWA Seaside Tutorial - two new chapters about testing and web feeds
by Stéphane Ducasse May 15, 2013

May 15, 2013

Well done guys! Stef Begin forwarded message: > From: Michael Perscheid <michaelperscheid(a)googlemail.com> > Subject: [Seaside] [ANN] SWA Seaside Tutorial - two new chapters about testing and web feeds > Date: May 15, 2013 10:23:41 AM GMT+02:00 > To: Seaside - general discussion <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > Reply-To: Seaside - general discussion <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > Hi all, > > once again, we updated the Seaside tutorial by the Software Architecture Group. > In this version, we added two new chapters covering the topics of testing and Web feeds. > > Please have a look at: http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside/tutorial > > I'd like to thank our students (Patrick Rein, Robin Schreiber, and Eric Seckler) > for preparing the new content. > > Best regards, > Michael > > P.S. The old link (http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial) is temporarily > broken due to an internal error. We are working on a solution. > > --- > Michael Perscheid > michaelperscheid(a)googlemail.com > > http://www.michaelperscheid.de/ > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >

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Web with Pharo Conference 6 June 2013 @ Lille
by Stéphane Ducasse May 15, 2013

May 15, 2013

Please distribute widely We are organizing a conference around the web and pharo the 6 June 2013 at http://www.euratechnologies.com https://www.inria.fr/centre/lille/agenda/web-3.0-avec-pharo Great speakers (J. Brichau from Yesplan, N. Petton from Amber and objectfusion, N Hartl from 2Denker,...) will present their business and products as well as some of the technology they use. Do not miss this key event. Please help us to make some buzz. https://www.facebook.com/events/534073843317751/ register at: http://bit.ly/16ahf7f Stef

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Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] GemStone/S product and team move to adedicated company
by Nowak, Helge May 6, 2013

May 6, 2013

Congratulations! And good success! Helge -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Dale Henrichs Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Mai 2013 21:27 An: esug-list(a)lists.esug.org list Cc: dale henrichs Betreff: [Esug-list] [ANN] GemStone/S product and team move to adedicated company If you haven't already heard, the GemStone/S team is becoming an independent company after 3 years as part of VMware. The entire engineering team is moving to GemTalk Systems[1]. GemTalk Systems is completely focused on Smalltalk, GemStone/S and allied initiatives. I've published a blog post[2] with my take on the acquisition (short answer is "excited!"), if you have any additional questions, feel free to contact me. Dale [1] http://gemtalksystems.com/index.php/about-us/engineers/ [2] http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/gemtalk-systems-acquires-gemst… _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

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Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] GemStone/S product and team move to a dedicated company
by Dale Henrichs May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

Stef, Thanks.... I am hoping that there will be more interaction with Pharo as well ... As I said in a comment on my blog post[1]: ...right now though, our first priority is to smoothly transition from VMware to GemTalk and make sure that our existing customer base (both paid and free) are taken care of. Frankly at the moment there is no second priority:) Once we get things stabilized we will start talking about moving forward and I will be pushing for more active involvement with Pharo. Dale [1] http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/gemtalk-systems-acquires-gemst… ----- Original Message ----- | From: "stephane ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> | To: "Dale Henrichs" <dhenrich(a)vmware.com> | Cc: "esug-list(a)lists.esug.org list" <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> | Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2013 1:41:32 AM | Subject: Re: [Esug-list] [ANN] GemStone/S product and team move to a dedicated company | | I really wish a lot of successes to GemTalk and many new customers | I love the name :) | I hope that we will get more interactions between Pharo and GemTalk. | | Stef | | > If you haven't already heard, the GemStone/S team is becoming an | > independent company after 3 years as part of VMware. The entire | > engineering team is moving to GemTalk Systems[1]. | > | > GemTalk Systems is completely focused on Smalltalk, GemStone/S and allied | > initiatives. | > | > I've published a blog post[2] with my take on the acquisition (short answer | > is "excited!"), if you have any additional questions, feel free to contact | > me. | > | > Dale | > | > [1] http://gemtalksystems.com/index.php/about-us/engineers/ | > [2] | > http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/gemtalk-systems-acquires-gemst… | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Esug-list mailing list | > Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org | > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |

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