Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"
In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise". "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." My son is not me. He is inspired by me. Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me. He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me? He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing? I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be. Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family. Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be. ----------------- Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)? -------- Original message -------- From: Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00) To: Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> Cc: ESUG <esug-list@lists.esug.org>,pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr,pharo-business@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Dear Stef and Doru, what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. Cheers Helge Von: Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business@lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business@lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list@lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers, I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: Pharo is NOT Smalltalk All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Cheers Helge _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org -- http://www.tudorgirba.com/ "Every thing has its own flow"
***THANKS*** for your great words. Indeed I have three boys and I expect them to be smarter and better than me (without having to kill me :)). some people forget that around the corner we have Javascript, Lua, Python, ruby and scala, dart…..and many others and such battles are far more important. Stef On 31 Jul 2014, at 18:10, Richard Sargent <rsargent@5x5.on.ca> wrote:
In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise".
"Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired."
My son is not me. He is inspired by me.
Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me.
He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me?
He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing?
I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be.
Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family.
Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be.
----------------- Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)?
-------- Original message -------- From: Helge Nowak Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00) To: Tudor Girba Cc: ESUG ,pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr,pharo-business@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"
Dear Stef and Doru,
what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly):
Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired."
Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-)
I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way.
Cheers Helge
Von: Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business@lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business@lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list@lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"
Hi,
The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage.
This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time.
Cheers, Doru
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers,
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: Pharo is NOT Smalltalk All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth
I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.
Cheers Helge
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
"Every thing has its own flow"
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
In Germany we say "analogies limp". And so does the parents/child analogy for communities. Cheers Helge ________________________________ Von: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> An: Richard Sargent <rsargent@5x5.on.ca> CC: Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de>; Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>; ESUG <esug-list@lists.esug.org>; "pharo-business@lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business@lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Gesendet: 21:22 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" ***THANKS*** for your great words. Indeed I have three boys and I expect them to be smarter and better than me (without having to kill me :)). some people forget that around the corner we have Javascript, Lua, Python, ruby and scala, dart…..and many others and such battles are far more important. Stef On 31 Jul 2014, at 18:10, Richard Sargent <rsargent@5x5.on.ca> wrote: In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise". "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." My son is not me. He is inspired by me. Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me. He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me? He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing? I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be. Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family. Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be. ----------------- Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)? -------- Original message -------- From: Helge Nowak Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00) To: Tudor Girba Cc: ESUG ,pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr,pharo-business@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Dear Stef and Doru, what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly): Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired." Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-) I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way. Cheers Helge Von: Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> An: Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> CC: "pharo-business@lists.pharo.org" <pharo-business@lists.pharo.org>; "pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-consortium@lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list@lists.esug.org> Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014 Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired" Hi, The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage. This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time. Cheers, Doru Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <hknowak@yahoo.de> wrote: Dear Pharoers,
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things: 1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk 2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future 3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth
I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it. Cheers Helge
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- http://www.tudorgirba.com/ "Every thing has its own flow" _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
participants (3)
-
Helge Nowak -
Richard Sargent -
Stéphane Ducasse