Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future. Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don’t. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first. Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers, Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this: - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers, Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
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Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process. Here is the story: On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately. Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal. What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums. In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. Best regards Janko [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers, Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this: - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers, Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
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-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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-- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si> wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Lol. Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed. Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice). Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. Case closed. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi Janko, So you overrode Stef’s decision, left the project in, and what happened. Did we get a Newspeak / Smalltalk translator? I’m not sure I agree with Igor here. If someone wanted to do a translator to some other language, that might be cool. Having more ways to integrate with other languages may not be a bad idea. I don’t think it would be a project for a student or something that could be properly accomplished during a summer. But I guess that doesn’t matter, a summer could get you 80% of the way there. This seems to me to be a difference of opinion and not an ethical lapse or an abuse of power. Stef was right in asking for the suggestion to be removed. You were right to disagree. In both cases it was a judgment call. It seems to me that since the project stayed on the site, that Stef was also quite reasonable. He listened to your objection, he heard your opinion, (he probably disagreed with you), and he let the idea stay on the site. The only thing that may have made this better would have been Stef requesting the removal publically. This transparency would have come at the risk of alienating the Newspeak community which in my mind is still part of the Smalltalk community, and one of the better contributors of code for all of us (considering their current work on Cog and Spur). In that light, I understand the desire to do it privately. In this case, in my opinion, everyone acted ethically. There is no blame to be found. All the best, Ron Teitelbaum Head Of Engineering 3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting <mailto:ron@3dicc.com> ron@3dicc.com Follow Me On Twitter: <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum> @RonTeitelbaum <http://www.3dicc.com/> www.3dicc.com <https://www.google.com/+3dicc> https://www.google.com/+3dicc From: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:15 PM To: Janko Mivšek Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude) On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si> wrote: Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process. Here is the story: On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately. Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal. What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums. In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. Best regards Janko [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas Lol. Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed. Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice). Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. Case closed. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. So I proposed a few projects none of which were accepted. I think that's fine - no one has to agree with me on what is important or interesting. I also think that saying that Newspeak is outside the Smalltalk "tent" is a legitimate position, even if I may disagree. I know may others in the Smalltalk community have felt that Newspeak, while different, is part of the family. After all, I and I my colleagues have been invited to speak about Newspeak at Smalltalk conferences several times. I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. However, after 2010 I did not participate in GSoc, since it was clear that my ideas did not coincide with those of the wider Smalltalk community. I won't say any more on the topic. I wish you all the best, and I'm glad the GSoc effort continues. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si> wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Lol. Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.
Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice). Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct. Case closed.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
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-- Cheers, Gilad
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers! Cross-posting continues... On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM! And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right? [SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool! The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :) 3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] regards, Göran PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All, On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
*explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable. I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen! Eliot
On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
*explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella? If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen! Eliot
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
:) Sorry, not very serious but still: "Newspeak is a new programming language *in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk*" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/] "Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk-inspired environment*" [http://www.pharo-project.org/home] Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only "Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired? According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then Pharo :) And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to say... But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community. -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>:
On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
*explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella?
If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen! Eliot
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi Igor and all! On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP]
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella?
Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)
If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;) regards, Göran PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject.
On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi Igor and all!
On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP]
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell,
we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella?
Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO.
Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk!
And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"?
And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit!
Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)
Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics. The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? And let me be clear: i am not against Newspeak or any other language or person(s) who invested a lot into it and keep investing. They are doing good things in exploring and pushing forward original ideas and enriching our computing world. But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics. The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo
+1 or would anybody seriously want to deny a Java/C#/Ruby/PHP/Cobol/youNameIt-to-Smalltalk converter written in Smalltalk from GSoC? Helge -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Paolo Bonzini Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Februar 2014 17:14 An: Igor Stasenko; Göran Krampe Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak Betreff: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics. The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
On 11.02.2014, at 17:14, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini@gnu.org> wrote:
Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics. The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer.
Paolo
How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak? - Bert -
Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer.
How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak?
Of course, everything must be considered on a case-by-case basis. There is no hard and fast rule. With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity. Paolo
On 11 February 2014 18:08, Paolo Bonzini <bonzini@gnu.org> wrote:
Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be
eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer.
How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak?
Of course, everything must be considered on a case-by-case basis. There is no hard and fast rule.
Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing arguments.
With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity.
No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG umbrella.
Paolo
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Il 11/02/2014 18:29, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing arguments.
With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity.
No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG umbrella.
Exactly---that would be *my* choice as GNU Smalltalk maintainer. Other Smalltalk VMs are definitely welcome. Paolo
On 2/11/2014 6:29 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you have to draw it
Hi Igor, I want to draw your attention to the fact that this is black-and-white thinking. We don't need that in a dynamic environment, we can postpone the decision of where that line is till way after we start running the code. We can implement it in the debugger if an exception is risen and ignore it if no exception is risen. We can even decide to not implement it all and merely tweak the values of variables in the debugger each and every every time we see an UHE, no line needed at all then... :-) Reinout -------
Hi happy (or sad like me today) Smalltalkers and friends for most of you. Thank for the support of some of you. I think that this story is an amazing press for Smalltalk. I’m still shocked that people do not realise how it can be bad for all of us. Now I have my part of responsibility and I should not have replied to such aggression. But I have one rule in life is to never let people lie about me and my projects. Since I feel that I cannot do much beside being systematically insulted without the right to say anything I will quit the GSOC mentor mailing-list, I will not propose any topics this year and I will set up a rule to any mails with Janko or GSOC to be trashed. I’m immensely sad for the students that work with me and all the people that trust me and judge me on my acts since all these years. Fools and idiots won. I lost no problem. I prefer to focus on creating good energy. No need to reply because my filter is on and delete everything automatically. Stef In these moments, I wonder why I did not went in ruby. On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si> wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers, Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this: - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers, Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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-- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
Now that's the worst outcome which came out of it. Thanks, Janko.. i hope you feel better now. On 10 February 2014 18:44, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>wrote:
Hi happy (or sad like me today) Smalltalkers and friends for most of you.
Thank for the support of some of you. I think that this story is an amazing press for Smalltalk. I’m still shocked that people do not realise how it can be bad for all of us. Now I have my part of responsibility and I should not have replied to such aggression. But I have one rule in life is to never let people lie about me and my projects.
Since I feel that I cannot do much beside being systematically insulted without the right to say anything I will quit the GSOC mentor mailing-list, I will not propose any topics this year and I will set up a rule to any mails with Janko or GSOC to be trashed.
I’m immensely sad for the students that work with me and all the people that trust me and judge me on my acts since all these years.
Fools and idiots won. I lost no problem. I prefer to focus on creating good energy.
No need to reply because my filter is on and delete everything automatically. Stef
In these moments, I wonder why I did not went in ruby.
On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:38, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si> wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers, Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this: - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers, Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano < estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
-- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi all, I was trying to keep aways from the discussion but now I am directly involved as the "co-admin" of GSoC 2010. First, Janko, I don't see at all your point here. Whether it was true or not, making this PUBLIC and NOW does not make sense. It only makes clear the only thing you want to do is to bash Stef. So it is clearly something personal. Second...I will tell you what I remember. I do remember Stef suggesting/complaining about Newspeak as well as other none-very-smalltalk-related projects (I don't remember which were the other). I remember Stef was not the only one, but most of the mentors agreed to the same. And in fact, it made sense. WE wanted to use ESUG infrastructure. That means using its resources, its setup, its administrator, accountant, etc. Do you think all this setup comes from free? So....even if it was not the case, but imagine for a second that ESUG has certain thoughts about being used as the GSoC organization, then I think we should listen and discuss to get to an agreement. Otherwise, it is easy, use your own organization and that's all. I am NOT saying we should do what ESUG says.... I am just saying ESUG board opinions should be considered along with the community if ESUG wants to be used as Mentoring Organization. Same reason if we would like to use Newspeak for some Smalltalk-related projects. Third, I never ever remember Stef "forcing" me to do that. I cannot remember more than a "recommendation". If there is something I did (I do not even remember), I did it myself. But again... I really don't understand at all why this discussion now.... On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si>wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick. I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't. I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me. I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. It is impressive to see how fragile the community is. Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers, Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this: - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail). - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers, Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano < estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
-- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Il 11/02/2014 22:42, Mariano Martinez Peck ha scritto:
First, [...]
Second, [...]
Third, [...]
Fourth, it was the first time that ESUG participated to the Summer of Code, and the first time that Janko and you were administrating it. Errare humanum est. Perseverare, autem, diabolicum... Paolo
Except that I’m now the devil from the eyes of Gilad. Superb. So the burn strategy of Janko worked perfectly. I do not know what he gained but we all lost. He seems to be a smart guy with which everybody wants to work with in the future. Michele also told me that: "you should not shit where you eat." and I think that this is an important point.
Fourth, it was the first time that ESUG participated to the Summer of Code, and the first time that Janko and you were administrating it. Errare humanum est.
Perseverare, autem, diabolicum...
Paolo
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participants (13)
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Dennis Schetinin -
Eliot Miranda -
Gilad Bracha -
Göran Krampe -
Igor Stasenko -
Janko Mivšek -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Nowak, Helge -
Paolo Bonzini -
Reinout Heeck -
Ron Teitelbaum -
Stéphane Ducasse