February 2014 - Esug-list - lists.esug.org

[GSoC 2014] Announcing Nicolas Petton as co-admin
by Paolo Bonzini Feb. 11, 2014

Feb. 11, 2014

I'm pleased to announce that Nicolas Petton will be helping me with administration of the GSoC. As you may know, Nicolas is the lead developer of Amber Smalltalk and the Iliad web framework. He has worked with many other Smalltalk dialects in the past, including GNU Smalltalk and Pharo. In the interest of transparency, I will mention that: - I had previously asked Damien Cassou, but he preferred to have someone more neutral than an ESUG board member. It is interesting that I had picked him *exactly* because he was an ESUG board member. :) - Nico will be submitting project ideas for Amber and he might thus serve as a mentor too (I won't). Nevertheless, I'm sure that the selection process will be as transparent as possible. Thanks, Paolo

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Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
by Richard Sargent Feb. 11, 2014

Feb. 11, 2014

Janko, You have already thrown a brick. I don't understand your refusal to throw stones. Who is being accused of doing what? Spell it out for us. Sent from my Samsung S III -------- Original message -------- From: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> Date: 2014/02/10 02:57 (GMT-08:00) To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com Cc: ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org>,Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org>,The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Subject: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > Janko CAN YOU STOP! > > "blatantly unethical behavior” > Really > > Stef Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? Janko >> Phil, >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. >> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >> murky waters more and more. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil(a)highoctane.be >> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>: >>> Guys, >>> >>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>> the kindergarten. >>> >>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>> >>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>> >>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Janko, >>> >>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si> >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>> misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>> while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>> report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>> pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>> loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>> apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FACTS >>>> >>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>> projects in 2013. >>>> >>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>> by Google. >>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>> >>>> All in all we paid: >>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>> GSOC) each >>>> projects >>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>> >>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>> >>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>> sponsorized 3. >>>> >>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>> mentor >>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>> recognizes ESUG >>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>> >>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>> >>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>> *own* time >>>> and it takes a lot! >>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>> falvors!) >>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>> >>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>> I can do errors too. >>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>> >>>> I cannot admit that: >>>> >>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>> directed >>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>> hide or >>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>> >>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>> have done a >>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>> ME for >>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>> >>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>> yesterday and I >>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>> >>>> >>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>> problems together >>>> if any. >>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>> >>>> #Luc >>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>> in bad mood -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
by Igor Stasenko Feb. 11, 2014

Feb. 11, 2014

On 11 February 2014 01:30, Alexander Lazarević <alexander(a)lazarevic.de>wrote: > Wait wait wait wait! Now I get it! This is a drama queen contest, isn't > it?! Where can I vote? > > People please relax, try to get laid over the weekend and let's talk on > monday again ... > > Phew .... Shhheeeezus > > you are blah-blahtly unethical! shame on you! :) > Cheers, > Alex > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

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[GSoc 2014] Collecting project ideas and preparing the application
by Paolo Bonzini Feb. 10, 2014

Feb. 10, 2014

Hi all, now that Janko has kindly accepted to step down and I've been appointed by ESUG board as organization admin, here is my proposal for GSoC 2014. Everything except publishing project ideas will be done through Google's Melange application. Project ideas will be sent by email and I'll publish them on the ESUG wiki. Therefore, here are my first two requests: - trivially, an account on the ESUG wiki so that i can collect and post the ideas; - interested mentors should start a thread for their favorite Smalltalk dialect called "[GSoC ideas] Dialect name" and send it to the project mailing list. Please Cc smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com *and myself*. This is very important in case Google Groups rejects messages from non-members or anything like that. The message could be something like this: Hi fellow <Smalltalk dialect name> hackers, ESUG, the European Smalltalk User Group, is applying for this year's Google Summer of Code. As you probably know, the Summer of Code provides the opportunity to fund students to work during the summer on <Smalltalk dialect name>. Please reply to this email (be sure to use "Reply to all") if you have ideas you would like to propose. Please include a summary of the project and links to web pages that can help prospective students to write their application. Please also include the following information: - if applicable, other dialects that you would be willing to mentor this project for - the skill level - name of the mentor(s), email addresses, and possibly any IRC network/channel/nickname where they can be found. Thanks for contributing to ESUG's Summer of Code application! <Your name here> I'm drafting the 2014 application based on past year's (http://gsoc2013.esug.org/application) Serge, can you provide me the numbers for passing and failing students in the 2013 edition? I expect to follow up in a few days and announce who the backup admin will be. Future messages will *not* be sent to esug-list(a)lists.esug.org, so please subscribe to the mentors mailing list smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com if you are interested in the program. Thanks, your friendly neighborhood GSoC administrator Paolo Bonzini

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Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
by Stéphane Ducasse Feb. 10, 2014

Feb. 10, 2014

On 10 Feb 2014, at 13:28, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > On 2/10/14 4:24 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way. > > Now now, let's not get the flames stoked again :). Sorry andres but I’m personally attack and I do not even know why and for what. We are attacked because the board thought that this is better to pay 5000 $ students so that they get the same as GSOC ones. This is really that. I cannot believe it. And I can tell you that I do not want to get anything to do with GSOC (I will redraw my topics) and Janko. Stef > > Andres. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
by Luc Fabresse Feb. 10, 2014

Feb. 10, 2014

Hi all, ------------ FACTS As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC projects in 2013. ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google. In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. All in all we paid: - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each projects - Serge trip to Mentor summit And we received 5552EUR from Google so yes we lost ~6582EUR That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we sponsorized 3. I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG ang gives slots the next year. It is alos important to note dates. ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. ------------ FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time and it takes a lot! I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) is a really great language that should be more widespread. I also completely open to discussions. The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. I can do errors too. So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! I cannot admit that: - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed against the treasurer so me. And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or steal money make me think that I should better quit. - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I am spending my week-end with my kids I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together if any. But I think it will never happen... #Luc The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood

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Pharo Weekly
by Stéphane Ducasse Feb. 10, 2014

Feb. 10, 2014

Hi guys I started a blog about pharo for those that do not want to read 1000 mails to get information :) http://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/ Spread the word Stef

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
by Joachim Tuchel Feb. 10, 2014

Feb. 10, 2014

Phil, That's your opinion. I don't think money of sponsors should be spent with such an attitude. Unfortunately, I do not fully unerstand what Janko is saying and the links he provided don't help me really. Is he saying that the ESUG board ignored the vote of gsoc mentors on how much to pay to students in the additional projects? Was that money spent unequally and does Janko say this was unfair and does he say the projects that got more did so because they were pharo projects? If so, this needs some explanation. If it's not true, we can go on and say the board did it with the members' placet. Then we can shrug and say "so what?" Thats what we have a motivated and elected board for. I agree with you in so far as this is a really bad moment in time for this discussion. If all of tgis means gsoc comes to a halt for Smalltalk because we cannot apply in time, that would be really a pity. As a sponsor, I'd like to know what Janko is really up to and if the way things went is okay, since I want our money to be spent for positive things, like the yearly conference and many other great things esug is doing. As a sponsor, I wouldn't want to see anybody in the board to think about our money the way you expresss it here. Even if Esug is a european organization, it has very limited financial abilities, and 4000 euros thrown away or used unethically is not peanuts. Joachim phil(a)highoctane.be schrieb: >Guys, > >>From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >the kindergarten. > >All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >Backwards, there is a fair chance. > >Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. > >Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to fight >over for an European org... (rolleyes). > >Phil > > > > >On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com>wrote: > >> Hi Janko, >> >> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 extra-GSOC >> but we paid only 3 because one student gave up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate last >> year BUT we were willing to spend it. >> >> Luc >> >> >> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > ------------ >>> > FACTS >>> > >>> > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>> > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>> > projects in 2013. >>> > >>> > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by >>> Google. >>> > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki. >>> > >>> > All in all we paid: >>> > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each >>> > projects >>> > - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>> > >>> > And we received 5552EUR from Google >>> > >>> > so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>> > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>> > sponsorized 3. >>> > >>> > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor >>> > summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG >>> > ang gives slots the next year. >>> > >>> > It is alos important to note dates. >>> > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>> > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>> > >>> > ------------ >>> > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>> > >>> > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time >>> > and it takes a lot! >>> > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!) >>> > is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>> > >>> > I also completely open to discussions. >>> > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>> > I can do errors too. >>> > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>> > >>> > I cannot admit that: >>> > >>> > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed >>> > against the treasurer so me. >>> > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or >>> > steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>> > >>> > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a >>> > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for >>> > DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>> > >>> > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I >>> > am spending my week-end with my kids >>> > >>> > >>> > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>> > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together >>> > if any. >>> > But I think it will never happen... >>> > >>> > #Luc >>> > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Janko Mivšek >>> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >>> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

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About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name
by Stéphane Ducasse Feb. 9, 2014

Feb. 9, 2014

Dear community On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com janko is kind of declaring that ESUG was not doing a good job managing GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact. Personally if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does not have anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and stress. Note in addition that we never interferred with the choice or anything. I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend time, money and be treated like that. Sorry! We are sad but this is like that. Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo. Where are the research teams and teachers? Of course: the mails of janko are just so nice. I let you judge. It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not to organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG. > About motivations for my proposal: > > 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' . And this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations to choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs. > > 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let we avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that. I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you as easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source smalltalk. May be the losers theory. I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much calmer than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that is a nice proof in itself. Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua, Javascript, ruby and python, clojure that we should fight. Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative. Stef Begin forwarded message: > From: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name > Date: 8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1 > To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com > Reply-To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com > > Dear mentors, > > I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name. Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs, as the name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization therefore doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity. > > Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to deadline, decision needs to be done soon. > > Best regards > Janko > > --- > Janko Mivšek > Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google. ESUG is an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax forms and so on. Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive money for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall? One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that it was the same organisation that is already in the books of google. And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost money (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots than got in with the money from google). We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit: Google only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going from the airpot to the hotel). What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We had last year the fast that a) it was very expensive for ESUG b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay the same as google c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put “Google Summer of Code” on the CV. The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So we ask if it is really worth to spend the money if even the students are not happy about it. And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be easier to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks: I think this is a dumb idea. Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They just need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do to be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just *insane*. It’s a description of death itself. Marcus

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Re: [Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name
by Joachim Tuchel Feb. 9, 2014

Feb. 9, 2014

Hi, we've had the bias debate before - the end of the story was that while some people thought it might look like people in the esug board could be biased, it showed most people who joined the discussion don't bother. And if I remember the thing why the discussion was started back then was not done, so I guess we can forget about that for now. Just one comment: I cannot read from Janko's mail that he thinks esug didn't do a good job of makin gsoc a reality. I was never involved, so I cannot tell if that is thanks to Janko's help or if it was an avhievement of the esug board. In the end, it probably doesnt even matter: the outcome was positive. Re: too much pharo. Is the pharo community to blame for the fact that it generates most interest? I personally would like to see more cross-smalltalk ideas in gsoc, but not having enough time and courage to act as a mentor, who am I to complain? Again, I didn't read Jankos comments as an accusation, more like the attempt to motivate people in other dialects to come out and play. I think Janko and the people who worked with him the last years to make things happen have done a great job and I am happy we've had Smalltalk projects happen, even if I personally have not used any of the contributions. For some, I cant even tell if they went anywhere. For those, fighting is useless, and for the others not worth it: they're open source and can be ported to any dialect. So it would be a pity if we lost Janko's drive and even more if we couldn't be part of gsoc this year due to this debate. I also think a new organization is way too much work and cannot see any problems with esug being the umbrella for Smalltalk projects in gsoc. The worst thing that could happen is another broken link to ancient and outdated Smalltalk information. We've had enough of that. Esug, as any other organization, may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. If it's about domain names, we sure will find sponsors to rent a few smalltalk names and redirect them - althiugh I think promoting what we have a bit more would help more than that. just my 2 cents, Joachim Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> schrieb: >The Squeak Oversight Board would like to see GSoC projects continue >under the European Smalltalk User Group. > >The Squeak community plans to present several projects this year. > >frank > >On 8 February 2014 09:50, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> Dear community >> >> On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com janko is kind of declaring >> that ESUG was not doing a good job managing >> GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact. Personally >> if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does not have >> anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and stress. Note >> in addition that we never interferred with the choice or anything. >> >> I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend >> time, money and be treated like that. >> Sorry! We are sad but this is like that. >> >> Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the >> fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo. >> Where are the research teams and teachers? Of course: the mails of janko >> are just so nice. I let you judge. >> >> It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not to >> organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG. >> >> About motivations for my proposal: >> >> 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' . And >> this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations to >> choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs. >> >> 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let we >> avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more >> independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that. >> >> >> >> I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you as >> easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that >> some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source >> smalltalk. May be the losers theory. >> >> I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much calmer >> than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that is a nice >> proof in itself. >> >> Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua, Javascript, >> ruby and python, clojure that we should fight. >> >> Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative. >> >> Stef >> >> >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)gmail.com> >> Subject: [gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name >> Date: 8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1 >> To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com >> Reply-To: smalltalk-gsoc-mentors(a)googlegroups.com >> >> Dear mentors, >> >> I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name. >> Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs, as the >> name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization therefore >> doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity. >> >> Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to deadline, >> decision needs to be done soon. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> --- >> Janko Mivšek >> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google. ESUG is >> an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax forms and so on. >> >> Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive money >> for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall? >> >> One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that it >> was the same organisation that is already in the books of google. >> >> And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost money >> (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots >> than got in with the money from google). >> We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit: Google >> only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going from the >> airpot >> to the hotel). >> >> >> What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We had >> last year the fast that >> a) it was very expensive for ESUG >> b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay the >> same as google >> c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put “Google >> Summer of Code” on the CV. >> >> The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So we >> ask if it is really worth to spend the money >> if even the students are not happy about it. >> >> And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be easier >> to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks: I think this is a dumb idea. >> >> Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They just >> need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit >> my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do to >> be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just >> *insane*. It’s a description of death itself. >> >> Marcus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >Esug-list(a)lists.esug.org >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

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