[Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Niall Ross nfr at bigwig.net
Thu Jul 31 07:31:33 EDT 2014


Dear Helge, Johan et al,
    to me, it seems obvious that Pharo is Smalltalk, in a sense in which 
Ruby et al are not Smalltalk although they are Smalltalk-inspired.  Of 
course, all Smalltalks are also inspired by earlier Smalltalks and by 
other current Smalltalks.

All Smalltalk dialects share a good deal of base class library 
compatibility but of course even as regards non-UI, what runs on one 
Smalltalk may DNU on another, unless written with a cross-dialect goal 
in view or using a compatibility layer or with some code differences in 
dialect versions.  When you get into the area of UI, compatibility is 
more the exception than the rule.

It may be that the talk's phrasing was accidentally a bit misleading - 
or was intentionally exaggerated to avoid a "Smalltalk - isn't that old" 
reaction from that particular audience.

I don't mind exactly what is said in any particular talk oriented to a 
particular audience, but it seems clear to me that Pharo is a dialect of 
Smalltalk;  it is not _just_ Smalltalk-inspired.

          Just my 0.02p FWIW
                Niall Ross


Helge Nowak wrote:

> Dear Johan,
>
> I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what 
> is not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I 
> considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the 
> Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks.
>
> By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, 
> non-Smalltalk" corner. That is ok, yet has consequences. One of those 
> is that in this light Pharo is leaving the Smalltalk community. 
> Whether you reckon the word "divorce" for that departure aggressive is 
> your personal feeling. Divorce is a usual term describing the 
> splitting of a former whole. I don't find it aggressive.
>
> Smalltalk as a technology, philosophy and community has always evolved 
> - to the future (to what else?). Claiming that one leaves a community 
> in emphasizing that one wants to move to the future silently implies 
> that that community didn't move to the future, i. e. stays as is. I 
> don't think that this is a correct observation with regards to 
> Smalltalk. If it was intended to say that Pharo wants to move away 
> from some Smalltalk concept (technical or non-technical) it should be 
> said so, and whith regards to which concept and into what differing 
> direction. There are many ways to the future. No problem with that. 
> Smalltalk will walk its path.
>
> Cheers
> Helge
> „Wege entstehen dadurch, dass man sie geht.“, Franz Kafka
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* Johan Fabry <jfabry at dcc.uchile.cl>
> *An:* Helge Nowak <hknowak at yahoo.de>
> *CC:* "pharo-business at lists.pharo.org" 
> <pharo-business at lists.pharo.org>; 
> "pharo-consortium at lists.gforge.inria.fr" 
> <pharo-consortium at lists.gforge.inria.fr>; ESUG <esug-list at lists.esug.org>
> *Gesendet:* 12:24 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014
> *Betreff:* Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Helge Nowak <hknowak at yahoo.de 
> <mailto:hknowak at yahoo.de>> wrote:
>
> > Dear Pharoers,
> > 
> > I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on 
> Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk 
> inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired 
> because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:
> >     • Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
>
> Well, the question may also be: what IS Smalltalk? The ANSI Standard? 
> ST-80? Whose implementation IS Smalltalk in that case? I think many 
> current implementations may safely say that they are Smalltalk-inpired.
>
> >     • All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
>
> I think you are overgeneralizing. Doru is saying that Pharo is not 
> sticking to (let’s say) the historical concept of Smalltalk. Sure, you 
> may imply from that that some Smalltalks ARE sticking to that concept. 
> But IMO it is not valid to conclude that he is saying that ALL of them 
> are like that.
>
> >     • The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community 
> that gave them birth
>
> I don’t follow your reasoning. Divorce is a very strong and aggressive 
> statement. I don’t see that from what Doru is saying. Could you 
> provide more detail for your train of thought?
>
>
> > I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the 
> Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.
>
>
> Just my 0.02EUR ...
>
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>
> Johan Fabry  -  http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry <http://pleiad.cl/%7Ejfabry>
> PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile
>
>
>
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