[Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

Nicolas Petton petton.nicolas at gmail.com
Sat Feb 8 06:13:40 EST 2014

Guys, could you please stop this debate and focus all this energy on
proposing good topics instead? Try to actually accomplish something?

Is this what we want to show as a community? Hasn't this discussion done
enough harm already to the image we show to the world? Come on... Let's
try to be a better community together, not a worse one.

Janko Mivšek writes:

> Dear Smalltalkers,
> Stef is overreacting as always, going off-topic and don't want to see
> the real reasons behind this proposal. Which is to make GSoC attractive
> to all Smalltalkers by removing the last doubt about the any bias
> towards any Smalltalk or group. That's why I propose to go more
> independent under new name 'Smalltalk', besides a clearly better
> visibility of such name of course.
>   I invite you to follow the debate on GSoC mentor list:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors
> All mentors with voting rights on past GSoCs please join back to this
> mailing list and help with debate:
>   https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/join
> Best regards
> Janko
> Dne 08. 02. 2014 10:50, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
>> Dear community
>> On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com> janko is kind of
>> declaring that ESUG was not doing a good job managing 
>> GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact.
>> Personally if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does
>> not have anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and
>> stress. Note in addition that we never interferred with the choice or
>> anything. 
>> I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend
>> time, money and be treated like that.
>> Sorry! We are sad but this is like that.
>> Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the
>> fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo. 
>> Where are the research teams and teachers?  Of course: the mails of
>> janko are just so nice. I let you judge.
>> It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not
>> to organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG. 
>>> About motivations for my proposal:
>>> 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' .
>>> And this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations
>>> to choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs
>>> <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/list/public/google/gsoc2013>.
>>> 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let
>>> we avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more
>>> independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that.
>> I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you
>> as easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that 
>> some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source
>> smalltalk. May be the losers theory.
>> I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much
>> calmer than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that
>> is a nice proof in itself.
>> Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua,
>> Javascript, ruby and python, clojure that we should fight.
>> Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative. 
>> Stef
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> *From: *Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek at gmail.com>>
>>> *Subject: **[gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name*
>>> *Date: *8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1
>>> *To: *smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Reply-To: *smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com>
>>> Dear mentors,
>>> I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name.
>>> Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs,
>>> as the name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization
>>> therefore doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity.
>>> Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to
>>> deadline, decision needs to be done soon.
>>> Best regards
>>> Janko
>>> ---
>>> Janko Mivšek
>>> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
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>> Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google.
>> ESUG is an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax
>> forms and so on.
>> Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive
>> money for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall?
>> One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that
>> it was the same organisation that is already in the books of google.
>> And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost
>> money (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots
>> than got in with the money from google).
>> We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit:
>> Google only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going
>> from the airpot
>> to the hotel).
>> What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We
>> had last year the fast that
>> a) it was very expensive for ESUG
>> b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay
>> the same as google
>> c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put
>> “Google Summer of Code” on the CV.
>> The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So
>> we ask if it is really worth to spend the money
>> if even the students are not happy about it.
>> And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be
>> easier to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks:  I think this is a
>> dumb idea.
>> Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They
>> just need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit
>> my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do
>> to be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just
>> *insane*. It’s a description of death itself.
>> Marcus
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Nicolas Petton

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