[Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

Bruce Badger bwbadger at gmail.com
Sat Feb 8 05:41:03 EST 2014


It's remarkable that for such a small community, centred around an amazing
language, we end up being so balkanised (with apologies to the Balkans for
using that term).

I really don't think setting up a yet another new grouping will help.
 Unless we we like the balkanisation (I don't) we should work to identify
and group around some centre of gravity.

Are we really a community worthy of the term 'community'?  I do hope we are.




On 8 February 2014 10:33, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm at gmail.com> wrote:

>  the only thing that I can say is that you cannot say “ESUG is biased” and
> not wait a response… if you make accusations you will have the concerned
> people reacting.
> Imagine I say in list “Janko is a bad person, but lets avoid that
> discussion”… obviously that will not happen (and please notice, I’m not
> saying you are, I’m just using it as an example of a bad choice of
> argument).
>
> Esteban
>
> On 08 Feb 2014, at 11:25, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek at eranova.si> wrote:
>
> > Dear Smalltalkers,
> >
> > Stef is overreacting as always, going off-topic and don't want to see
> > the real reasons behind this proposal. Which is to make GSoC attractive
> > to all Smalltalkers by removing the last doubt about the any bias
> > towards any Smalltalk or group. That's why I propose to go more
> > independent under new name 'Smalltalk', besides a clearly better
> > visibility of such name of course.
> >
> >  I invite you to follow the debate on GSoC mentor list:
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors
> >
> > All mentors with voting rights on past GSoCs please join back to this
> > mailing list and help with debate:
> >
> >  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/join
> >
> > Best regards
> > Janko
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dne 08. 02. 2014 10:50, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
> >> Dear community
> >>
> >> On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
> >> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com> janko is kind of
> >> declaring that ESUG was not doing a good job managing
> >> GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact.
> >> Personally if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does
> >> not have anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and
> >> stress. Note in addition that we never interferred with the choice or
> >> anything.
> >>
> >> I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend
> >> time, money and be treated like that.
> >> Sorry! We are sad but this is like that.
> >>
> >> Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the
> >> fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo.
> >> Where are the research teams and teachers?  Of course: the mails of
> >> janko are just so nice. I let you judge.
> >>
> >> It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not
> >> to organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG.
> >>
> >>> About motivations for my proposal:
> >>>
> >>> 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' .
> >>> And this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations
> >>> to choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs
> >>> <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/list/public/google/gsoc2013>.
> >>>
> >>> 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let
> >>> we avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more
> >>> independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that.
> >>
> >>
> >> I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you
> >> as easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that
> >> some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source
> >> smalltalk. May be the losers theory.
> >>
> >> I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much
> >> calmer than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that
> >> is a nice proof in itself.
> >>
> >> Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua,
> >> Javascript, ruby and python, clojure that we should fight.
> >>
> >> Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative.
> >>
> >> Stef
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >>> *From: *Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek at gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:janko.mivsek at gmail.com>>
> >>> *Subject: **[gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name*
> >>> *Date: *8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1
> >>> *To: *smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
> >>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com>
> >>> *Reply-To: *smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
> >>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com>
> >>>
> >>> Dear mentors,
> >>>
> >>> I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name.
> >>> Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs,
> >>> as the name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization
> >>> therefore doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity.
> >>>
> >>> Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to
> >>> deadline, decision needs to be done soon.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards
> >>> Janko
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Janko Mivšek
> >>> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> >>> an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
> >>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google.
> >> ESUG is an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax
> >> forms and so on.
> >>
> >> Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive
> >> money for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall?
> >>
> >> One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that
> >> it was the same organisation that is already in the books of google.
> >>
> >> And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost
> >> money (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots
> >> than got in with the money from google).
> >> We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit:
> >> Google only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going
> >> from the airpot
> >> to the hotel).
> >>
> >>
> >> What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We
> >> had last year the fast that
> >> a) it was very expensive for ESUG
> >> b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay
> >> the same as google
> >> c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put
> >> “Google Summer of Code” on the CV.
> >>
> >> The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So
> >> we ask if it is really worth to spend the money
> >> if even the students are not happy about it.
> >>
> >> And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be
> >> easier to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks:  I think this is a
> >> dumb idea.
> >>
> >> Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They
> >> just need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit
> >> my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do
> >> to be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just
> >> *insane*. It’s a description of death itself.
> >>
> >> Marcus
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Esug-list mailing list
> >> Esug-list at lists.esug.org
> >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Janko Mivšek
> > Aida/Web
> > Smalltalk Web Application Server
> > http://www.aidaweb.si
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Esug-list at lists.esug.org
> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>
>
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