[Esug-list] About GSOC mess: Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name

Esteban Lorenzano estebanlm at gmail.com
Sat Feb 8 05:33:14 EST 2014

 the only thing that I can say is that you cannot say “ESUG is biased” and not wait a response… if you make accusations you will have the concerned people reacting. 
Imagine I say in list “Janko is a bad person, but lets avoid that discussion”… obviously that will not happen (and please notice, I’m not saying you are, I’m just using it as an example of a bad choice of argument). 


On 08 Feb 2014, at 11:25, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek at eranova.si> wrote:

> Dear Smalltalkers,
> Stef is overreacting as always, going off-topic and don't want to see
> the real reasons behind this proposal. Which is to make GSoC attractive
> to all Smalltalkers by removing the last doubt about the any bias
> towards any Smalltalk or group. That's why I propose to go more
> independent under new name 'Smalltalk', besides a clearly better
> visibility of such name of course.
>  I invite you to follow the debate on GSoC mentor list:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors
> All mentors with voting rights on past GSoCs please join back to this
> mailing list and help with debate:
>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/join
> Best regards
> Janko
> Dne 08. 02. 2014 10:50, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
>> Dear community
>> On the smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com> janko is kind of
>> declaring that ESUG was not doing a good job managing 
>> GSOC. We feel insulted and we are quite concerned by that fact.
>> Personally if students would not be involved I would vote that ESUG does
>> not have anything to do with GSOC. Because it costs us money, time and
>> stress. Note in addition that we never interferred with the choice or
>> anything. 
>> I will ask the ESUG board to decide because we cannot do the job, spend
>> time, money and be treated like that.
>> Sorry! We are sad but this is like that.
>> Then we do not like the kind of mails that Janko is sending us about the
>> fact that ESUG is biased towards Pharo. 
>> Where are the research teams and teachers?  Of course: the mails of
>> janko are just so nice. I let you judge.
>> It is particularly fun since this year we (the pharo board) decided not
>> to organise a Pharo conference to avoid competing with ESUG. 
>>> About motivations for my proposal:
>>> 1. 'Smalltalk' is more recognizable name on first spot that 'ESUG' .
>>> And this matters when a student looks at around 150 GSoC organizations
>>> to choose, which one to check and try. See last year list of orgs
>>> <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/list/public/google/gsoc2013>.
>>> 2. ESUG is currently regarded by many as too biased towards Pharo. Let
>>> we avoid starting debating is this is true or not. Making our org more
>>> independent will I hope remove any remaining doubt about that.
>> I feel shocked and insulted but I take it easy, having success make you
>> as easy target for jaleous people. This is strange that 
>> some people would prefer to have a non existing/moving open-source
>> smalltalk. May be the losers theory.
>> I added the answer of marcus below (because marcus usually is much
>> calmer than me) so that Janko succeeded to get marcus reacting like that
>> is a nice proof in itself.
>> Seriously Smalltalk is in a so good shape in presence of lua,
>> Javascript, ruby and python, clojure that we should fight.
>> Excellent idea thank for this nice initiative. 
>> Stef
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> *From: *Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:janko.mivsek at gmail.com>>
>>> *Subject: **[gsoc-mentors] Running under 'Smalltalk' org. name*
>>> *Date: *8 Feb 2014 08:46:18 GMT+1
>>> *To: *smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Reply-To: *smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:smalltalk-gsoc-mentors at googlegroups.com>
>>> Dear mentors,
>>> I propose that we run this year GSoC simply under 'Smalltalk' name.
>>> Mentoring organization will be us mentors of past and current GSoCs,
>>> as the name 'mentoring organization' implies anyway. Such organization
>>> therefore doesn't need to be some kind of legal entity.
>>> Because I need to open a new website and we have only one week to
>>> deadline, decision needs to be done soon.
>>> Best regards
>>> Janko
>>> ---
>>> Janko Mivšek
>>> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
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>> Of course you need it: I filled out quite some paperwork for Google.
>> ESUG is an official Google supplier, for that I filled american tax
>> forms and so on.
>> Without an organisation that will be very difficult. How do yu receive
>> money for the flight if someone goes to the meeting in the fall?
>> One of the reasons why the Smalltalk GSOC was accepted was I think that
>> it was the same organisation that is already in the books of google.
>> And I do not see why to change that: ESUG did a good job, we even lost
>> money (that is, we spend more money on additional Summer of Code slots
>> than got in with the money from google).
>> We payed all additional expenses of the people going to the Summit:
>> Google only pays the flight and hotel. Everyhting else not (e.g. going
>> from the airpot
>> to the hotel).
>> What we need to discuss this year is if additional slots make sense: We
>> had last year the fast that
>> a) it was very expensive for ESUG
>> b) even then, we got complaints that it was unfair that we did not pay
>> the same as google
>> c) that it was very extremely unfair that the student could not put
>> “Google Summer of Code” on the CV.
>> The last is the Killer: money from ESUG is just money. GSoC is more. So
>> we ask if it is really worth to spend the money
>> if even the students are not happy about it.
>> And if your motivation behind is that this way you think it will be
>> easier to enable “Quotas” for different Smalltalks:  I think this is a
>> dumb idea.
>> Yes, Pharo is very active. So could every other Smalltalk be, too. They
>> just need to do it. If they do not, it is not my duty to limit
>> my activity for “Fairness”. Limiting the activity level of those who do
>> to be more “in line” with what those do who do nothing is just
>> *insane*. It’s a description of death itself.
>> Marcus
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> -- 
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
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