Il 16/05/2013 22:35, Alejandro F. Reimondo ha scritto:

I can't accept a dependency on your changes to sources of your projects after my last download.

Yes, I think this is fair.

In case where we open smalltalk tools (compact or WI8 mode) we have a link to show the sources in the page, and the link works ok... if the tools work. So, developers (who can see source) can read the license.

That's not enough. Everyone must be able to read the license and the copyright notice, not just developers who can see the source. It's not just "the source" that is a derivative work. S8 is a derivative work, period.

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Your FAQ cannot stay evasive as it is now, it must include the proper copyright notice.

broken link (we will repair asap to point to a page with actual license terms).

Fixed now. But it is still prone to misunderstanding. If you really want to keep the "This question is incorrect" paragraph, I suggest you move this sentence It is frequently asked if "S8 source code" is derivative work of other MIT licensed sources (please read license terms). to the end (after "For people interested in...") and rewrite it as: S8 is a derivative work of other programs made available under the MIT license (please read license terms). Just moving the sentence this way would stop sounding arrogant. Paolo

Ale.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas@gmail.com> To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net>; "Paolo Bonzini" <paolo.bonzini@gmail.com> Cc: "esug-list" <esug-list@lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang@googlegroups.com>; <u8@smalltalking.net> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:17 PM Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!

Ale, thanks for your answer.

Again, your email is untouched at the bottom of this one.

First, **Amber and Jtalk are the same project**. It was simply renamed: https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/commit/1af622cf99ce11d248525fd9b6b0...

http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2011-September/053788.h...

So I would appreciate if you could put the right name and website link, of course stating that you took the code in september 2011, to not include more recent contributions. Here you can find the right names to include: https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/contributors?from=2011-03-13&to=201...

A link to this page would be perfectly fine too I think (I'm not a license expert).

While adding the copyright notice, please put it somewhere visible on the website. Your FAQ cannot stay evasive as it is now, it must include the proper copyright notice.

Cheers, Nico

On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net> wrote:

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Nicolas,

At the time I adapted my works to jTalk, Amber did not exist. The last snapshot of Jtalk I have downloaded was sept,27 2011 (date taken from my backups, and it was downloaded for update of dev. repository, not to use in S8 at that time). I will copy the exact lines present in jtalk license file to make it exact (hope tomorrow will be online). If I put Amber as origin, it will be honored people not related/responsible to the sources.

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If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk)

It is not "based on Amber", Amber was not published at the time I read the code.

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with a link and the license, it would completely solve the issue.

Will edit our license including exact lines of jtalk's LICENSE file.

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Getting the license file is currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry.

It is easy; press the "License terms" link present at any contribution page or evaluate the expression (with objects, evaluating is as easy as navigating files) in any image running S8.

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Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**.

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What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with modifications and additions to it.

I think you have not read a good part; and you are interested in promoting your actual product Amber. S8 has today a lot of frameworks -more than 40 at U8 site, and +300 contribution pages; more than 16mb of .st files- running on diferent platforms/devices.

The point here is that I can't help you saying that S8 is based on Amber; because it is based in a number of sources but not Amber.

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I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will not be needed).

Please review your links. It is similarity to Jtalk code what you find familiar.

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I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2 years.

Don't want to have a longer license string. :-P Anyone finding an issue can solve it changing his/her code base, and adding license lines to reference origins.

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I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all.

Ok, please go to your records and check the dates. I have no downloads of Amber, so I can't check if it has more diference to Jtalk than we can find for S8. What I can say is that S8 is not a kernel, it is a lot of COMPLETE frameworks to implement real apps with smalltalk running multiple devices and platforms. It is not something to read in a day.

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Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected.

Ale.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas@gmail.com> To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net> Cc: "esug-list" <esug-list@lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang@googlegroups.com>; <u8@smalltalking.net> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:34 PM Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!

Hi Ale,

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm keeping the entire contents of your response as you asked.

If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) with a link and the license, it would completely solve the issue. Getting the license file is currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry. Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**.

What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with modifications and additions to it.

I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will not be needed). I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2 years.

I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected.

Cheers, Nico

On May 16, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net> wrote:

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Dear Nico,

As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not subscribed, please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the point clear to persons that can read your asumptions about S8.

I am continuosly making presentations (real and virtual meetings) about S8 (the project), the objetives and also "why we are doing what we are doing" using the current implementation just now. [*] S8, as an implementation, are resources we have to make a step in our objetives at Smalltalking (the Smalltalking objetives are stated in http://www.smalltalking.net web site as "Un emprendimiento para el estudio de Ambientes de Objetos Virtuales") and we have been working with the same objetives from year 2001 (and I personally have been working more than a decade before the fundation of the association, at diferent levels, not only "writing code";) but also on design of concepts behind de use of virtual objects in syntetic ambiences, high perfomance execution environments -for smalltalk-, presentations about what "is" an OA and how it affects/change people, etc...)

I feel you consider only the code of S8 trying to understand what we are doing; without enough information about us. It is something frequently observed here, most people interested in "the code" (there is a lot to read today in the age of open sources) but it is wrong to try to infer history from code/snapshot. The use of open systems can help to learn that objects are much more than code, specifications and tools; but it require that the smalltalker leave the habbits of thinking in smalltalk as a language (and written code or it's contents).

On your first paragraph:

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After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I really don't like the statements on the website about the license and origin of the project [3].

(wrong) there was a time when I wanted to make S8 implementation as much as possible compatible with jTalk, and adapted most of my code to jTalk implementation and semantics. But a short time after that I leaved that conformace restrictions (because I did not saw much development in jTalk, and saw modifications going on a way I don´t wanted to follow). I've wrote that in a personal email long time ago.

S8 code can be considered a fork of jTalk, the same way as it can be considered a fork of other works (it contain source code from multiple open sources as stated in the license, present in each generated image). It is ok for me if people want to consider S8 a fork of one or other work, and also add lines to more origins in their copies of the code. I am not personally interested in code, credits nor written words. I am interested in always evolving systems (running in computer media and/or minds) and sharing experiences with people in motion (more than "one" history).

On lincese terms... it is Smalltalk... and, as usual...

The license terms of a S8 image can be read evaluating the following expression in a workspace:

Smalltalk current licenseTerms

it returns aString with the license terms in the environment it is currently running (it can change according to loaded frameworks at moment of evaluation) e.g. if you point your chrome browser to http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html you can open a workspace and evaluate the code to check license under that conditions/time of execution.

In case of running a S8 image in .net environment, that binds to .Net core frameworks running heterogeneous VM architecture, e.g. S8 for servers running IIS hosted sites you can see that #licenseTerms return aString including other "origins". It can also be the case for systems running on Android devices including frameworks to access native resources/services and/or browser applications doing computer vision tasks with frameworks I have written for that kind of applications.

To try to understand the situation please consider that you made wrong asumptions on the reference [3] in your text. ---your refs--- "the project [3]" -> http://u8.smalltalking.net/ ------------------

U8 is not a project. It is a service, for social development using Smalltalk. A service given free by Smalltalking association to promote the use of smalltalk under the guides of our formulation about OA (popular in our region).

There is not enough public information in written form about S8 project; it is something I use to do (to do not write papers :-) because I prefer to talk personally to produce more impact in people interested in OA; than to reach masses (e.g. exploit the marginal power of smalltalk). Sorry for that, I know it is the cause of confusion about other ways of working with smalltalk and also about most of the works I've made with my smalltalks :-)

[*] I will make a presentation about S8 in a few days at STIC2003 ( http://www.stic.st/ ) and it will be a good place to see more about S8 than reading the code :-) I will also try to make presentations in Europe this year, so we can meet to talk about our objetives and what we are doing with S8; and what we have done with Smalltalk to people in the last decades. I know that the differences and impressions we have on each other will resolve with patience, time and talking about what we want to do when we are on a keyboard :-)

all the best, Ale.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas@gmail.com> To: "esug-list" <esug-list@lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang@googlegroups.com> Cc: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net>; <u8@smalltalking.net> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:15 AM Subject: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!

-- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr

-- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr