Andres, On Oct 30, 2010, at 12:35 AM, Andres Valloud wrote:
I would like to try a browser that keeps track of the code navigation I have had to make so far to get where I am, something that relieves me from having to remember the graph traversal of the code. Does this exist?
In Newspeak, the Hopscotch browser maintains a history of everywhere you've been, which is always one click away - which means any class, object, workspace etc. is at most two clicks away at all times. I'm not sure if this is what you meant While I'm on the topic of Newspeak, here are some observations that are perhaps relevant to this thread. Be aware that I am engaged in shameless self promotion. a. Newspeak has a syntax. So: b You can edit Newspeak in whatever editor you want. The IDE runs in an image in the classic Smalltalk way, but also saves each class you modify in a file automatically. c. The IDE has integrated support for source control. Currently this uses a svn-Monticello integration, but the next phase will phase out Monticello and work directly with mercurial, git or svn. Furthermore e. Newspeak introduced the Alien FFI, which allows us to use the rest of the world's software. Case in point: we recently needed to talk to some software over https. Squeak does not support this natively, and requires a plugin, which is by its own documentation unstable. We just call out to libCurl. f. Using said aliens, we support a portable native GUI. Looks great on a modern Windows machine. We could support mac as well, if we had more resources. But, as Andres implies, this is fighting the last war. Hence: g. We are getting close to running the exact same GUI in a browser. h. As far as deployment goes, we can deploy apps independent of the IDE - either via the browser or as executables (on Windows) or, in principle, anything else. That is because the language actually supports modularity. Some of these features need more work to reach full maturity. This could happen sooner if we got more volunteers. While the Smalltalk community might be a good source of such volunteers, I recognize it isn't happening. So, what am I doing wrong? Newspeak is open source, it runs Squeak Smalltalk as well as Newspeak, and provides a very Smalltalk-like experience for those who want it, while addressing many of the issues that have been brought up in this thread. Even so, very few Smalltalkers are interested in working with Newspeak.
On 10/30/2010 12:29 AM, Marten Feldtmann wrote:
James is quite right here ... but there are many more hurdles and all these new potential users must be persuaded to come over these hurdles and be happy with it.
* e.g. even in Eclipse you're sticked to the editor - nobody complains about it (one may write an additional plug-in) so this hurdle can be accepted - if the editor is attractive and gives you real power. In the area of editors in all those Smalltalk systems I noticed an improvement in the look-and-feel area - BUT they still do not offer additional helps like showing all possible methods for an object. In all (Smalltalk-) systems is the way to navigate to another class very long, that drives me mad.
* the source code management problem seem to be a big hurdle. systems like svn, git, cvs are seen as open systems and are well known here. Nearly all ST systems have their own system (which are often far superior than the other ones). Source code exchange between all Smalltalk systems is worse ! Java, C and all that stuff would not be so attractive if the users have so many problems to switch from one Java-IDE to another Javae-IDE, or one C-compiler to another.
* the language itselfs is getting old. Missing standard namespaces, missing interface specifications (etc) seems to stand for old languages. The missing of interface specification is the worst one and I do not understand the community, that nobody insist on adding this to Smalltalk.
* Smalltalk systems are not well suited for multiprocessor, multithreading area ...
* delivering process is more difficult than with other languages ...
* we have problems getting access to successes in other languages. Out of the box it is difficult to interact with Java or .NET world.
* even with the often propagated better productivity we are forced (due to the point above) to reinvent the world instead of being able to use already available software components.
Considering all these hurdles - and then ask newcomers why should they use Smalltalk IDE xyz instead of Eclipse or VisualStudio (and both are available for more or less free and not copyright dialog and no runtime license problems).
Am 29.10.2010 12:14, schrieb James Robertson:
I'm not sure that's the case. I used that line a lot when I was the Smalltalk Evangelist at Cincom, and it's true - up to a point. However, the prospective developer who looks at the tools from a personal use standpoint cares. So
-- the not quite "standard" widgets in VisualWorks make him think -- the "all in one windows" thing in Pharo and Squeak make him think
I don't think those are complete showstoppers, but they are hurdles - and they are additional hurdles the Smalltalk community doesn't need. Consider that we already present two big hurdles that we require people to get past:
-- The prospective user can't use his favorite editor -- The prospective user can't use his favorite source code control tools
the UI hurdle is something that could be dealt with (and yes, I recognize the difficulties). The last two are just there. Given that, the additional UI level one should be considered more seriously
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Cheers, Gilad